Both Walcott and Charles was "spent" when they met Marciano.

Silly what you see here is excellent swarmers defense. Blocking, changing up in and out, parrying, slipping, bobbing and weaving. Textbook stuff.

 

Walcott had him down for the first time in his career...had him cut...blinded...and behind on all score cards...Charles gave him a GREAT fight in June 1954...took The Rock to 15 rounds for the only time..."spent?"...no!!!

 

Walcott was the best heavyweight in the world when Rocky beat him. Who was better than Walcott in 1951? How was he "spent"?

Charles had just about reversed every loss since the war with those who would rematch him, he was even 2-2 with Walcott. Some say he was unlucky not to regain the title. Charles was robbed verses Layne. Valdes and Johnson would not rematch Charles and their fights were close anyway. Until Rocky, nobody had any real edge over Charles. That's not a spent fighter!!

Charles was spent as soon as Rocky was done with him. Not before. when he met Rocky, Charles had as many good wins left in him as Muhammad Ali had going into his fight with George Foreman. It was an identical point in their careers.

A spent fighter is Pinklon Thomas versus Tommy Morrison. It's a guy already worn down, with nothing left, a world level guy who can no longer win against a rated fighter.

Can anyone say Charles was worn down, nothing left, he could no longer beat rated fighters when he iced two rated guys back to back?

Can anybody REALLY say Walcott was worn down with nothing left and could no longer beat rated fighters when in his previous fights he beat the most dominant heavyweight since Joe Louis??

 

Spent is definitely overstating the case ,past prime is not imo.
The fact that Walcott at 37 was the best heavyweight and Moore was the best contender at 39 does not mean either were prime,it is more a reflection on the divisions depth, or rather the lack of it. .imo.
The fact that Walcott was one more fight away from retirement indicates he was on the way down.
The series between Walcott and Charles was distinctly underwhelming,both were skilled boxers,that both gave initially thrilling efforts against Marciano was partly due to his lack of the very qualities they possessed.

Would either Charles or Walcott have beaten Marciano had they been prime?
Probably not ,but they were not prime when he fought them.
To examine your argument ,If I beat every top ten heavyweight around today does that make me an ATG? The depth of the division has to be take into account surely?

 

Different fighters and different circumstances - Walcott's best ever performance on film is the first Marciano fight - Walcott was that one - fortunately for him he got hit with a punch which IMO knocks out any heavyweight in history if caught in the same manner - so yes if they fought at any stage of Walcott's career and Marciano lands like that it's goodnight - Walcott said himself he never felt better in a fight we have to suspect any lesser version would probably go out the same way - possibly sooner?

Ez? Again first fight of theirs (my personal favourite fight of all time) Ez was INCREDIBLE - as impressive a performance as he's shown me on film -based on the challenge in front of him - that kind of performance is one that comes from something other than youth it comes from some place deep inside regardless of age or miles on the clock - he proved more to me in that fight than he did from any of his fights from when he was younger that we on film so for me again it would have to be a level of performance beyond any of the fights I've seen on film of the younger Ez anyway

 

The thread says "spent" not "past prime". The definition of "spent" describes a worn down fighter with nothing left to offer. How can a #1 contender delivering highlight reel worthy knockouts over rated fighters in his most recent fights have "nothing left to offer"? It's rediculous. How can the accepted best heavyweight in the world, who has just scored his most meaningful wins have "nothing left to offer".

why? Don't you think Walcott, Charles and Moore exhibited skill and class over the period?

No the fact is Walcott was on top of the mountain when he met Rocky. He had overcome Charles twice, improving on previous results. All it indicates is Walcott retired at the top. Was Micheal Spinks "on the way down" because he retired after Mike Tyson beat him?

if Marciano was so lacking in the very qualities they possessed he would have never reached a level worthy of fighting either of them.

How do you define prime? Charles and Walcott were still performing wonderfully well at world level during that time. Do you dispute this? Film in previous fight is not backing up what you are saying is it?

If you beat every top ten heavyweight today as convincingly as Marciano did it would make you about as great as it is possible to be today. But I dont see the technicians in the division today that exhibited what Charles, Walcott and Moore did on film against Heavyweights in Rockys era. Walcott icing Charles, Charles icing Satterfeild. Moore knocking out Harold Johnson.. these are great fighters winning great fights. Do you dispute this?

 

CHOC ,I'll address this when I am sober.:good

 

:good

 

Walcott was a physical marvel. Very few hwts walk into a ring in the kind of condition Joe was in the night he fought Rocky the first time. Walcott bloomed late in his career. Early on he worked multiple jobs to keep food on the table and had lingering injuries.

 

Very few heavyweights walk into a ring in the condition Wladimir Klitschko is in at 40, that doesn't mean he is prime.

 

charles prime was at lhw, no question in my mind about that.

walcott's a bit more difficult, i'd agree his best filmed performance is marciano, but his career best was certainley louis 1, which was a lot earlier.

 

Yes ,going to a micro brewery lunchtime, Jazz tomorrow.
Thanks for the vote of confidence:good

 

hes always on the p!ss...

 

the thread says "spent" its not about primes. a spent fighter is somebody worn down with nothing to offer. both guys were performing wonderfuly well at world level in previous fights. that is not "spent"