Bowe and Byrd question Tysons Legacy

Bowe makes a good point about how things changed for Tyson when he fought someone that was not afraid of him, he lost.....most of Tyson's opponents was afraid and unfortunately the same with Sonny Liston....Lets not forget these guys can punch very hard and were talented but things changed for them when they fought men who got up off the floor or showed no fear....things changed for them in the ring and in their minds

 

Tyson rates higher than both Bowe and Byrd so the argument is moot. Chris oversimplified Tyson's career as being summed up to a best win over a " light heavyweight." That man dominated a weight class and beat it from top to bottom. Became the youngest heavyweight champion of all time, unified a crown, reached the mark of 37-0 and did it within 4 years of turning pro. He had some decent wins after he lost the crown too. And as for Byrd's " man" Riddick Bowe, his career highlights largely revolve around meetings with a non-heavyweight too.

 

I have to disagree with this.

He struggled with boxer as you said, and his conditioning was usually crap. But his chin shouldn't be questioned.

 

Those were some pretty hard punchers you listed and he survived them all.

This contradicts your above statement of him facing " four decent punchers."

That's because the top ranked men during his prime Ali, Ellis, Quarry, Bonavena, etc, were not big punchers. He took on Foreman and lost. the other big bangers didn't emerge onto the scene until after he lost the title and when his career was winding down.

Not sure that I see a trend going on here. I've already pointed out Frazier's situation. And Bowe fought Holyfield, Cooper, Golata, Hide, and Gonzalez who could all crack. Sure he ducked Lewis. Tyson was irrelevent for reasons already discussed in another thread. Moorer and Foreman are the only other ones I could think of, but frankly I think their people wanted even LESS to do with Bowe than vice versa.

Frazier's chin was questionable. I'll give you that. But Bowe was never stopped despite facing several big hitters and having a crap defense which resulted in him taking a lot of shots. I agree with you on his other shortcomings but not anything that involves questioning his chin.

Maybe, but the same could be said in reverse if he were to get some of his better shots off on them..

 

Yeah that shaky chin of Bowes saw him through 3 fights with The Warrior yet Iron Mikes chin was shattered in the 11th round.

 

your right Bowe had his flaws but he could take a very good punch for a guy that got hit so much, in fact I think his weakness was getting hit too much but not his chin

 

Exactly. The fact that his chin was good enough to compensate for having such poor defense and against some men who could really crack, only strengthens the argument that he was durable.

 

:-( Not really.

 

I don't think it would have made any difference at all if Tyson's opponents had not been afraid of him (if that were even true). Whatever perception they had of him was going to be legitimized or not when he punched them. Intimidation would be worthless if he had no power or punch to justify any pre-fight concerns or other impressions they had from watching him in other fights. I think it is more accurate to say that they watched him land powerful shots (with both hands) and hurt other heavyweights and they were impressed. Then they got in the ring and discovered sure enough - those punches from the little guy hurt and they were hard and damaging.

With the exception of one fight, on a "rock-star" tour of Japan, he went 40-1 until he was 25 years of age and went off to jail. If losing a fight means Douglas stood up to him then it didn't have your described effect. He came back and won four straight including two wars with a prime and not afraid, Razor Ruddock.

Things didn't change for Tyson because Douglas stood up to him in a winning fight or when Ruddock stood up to him in two losing fights. What changed wasn't some discovery of a secret Tyson potion that made him beatable merely by not being afraid him. What changed was spending over four years out of the ring and returning less motivated than previously. It was a rather common malady affecting Mike: too much success at too early an age. It was rearing its head in Japan and it was not going to be bottled again (especially after the long stint in prison) to ever force him into that same level of dedication he had had coming up as a hungry young fighter. Who can say how fights in '92 might have gone between Holyfield, Bowe, etc.? I think most would agree that Tyson after the four fights post-Douglas culminating with two Ruddock wars would have been better prepared for a Holyfield matchup than in late '96 after four years on the shelf and those four post-prison fights he had (McNeeley, Mathis, Jr., Bruno II, and Seldon). Ruddock landed many huge bombs in those two fights that would have shook lesser men to their boots. Mike looked as dissuadable in '91 as he had always been.

 

If that is not clear, it means Mike still looked pretty damn difficult to deter in the ring in '91. Merely being "willing" to stand up to him wasn't going to ensure the job got done.

I think the four-year two-month absence from the ring is comparable to Ali's.

And, without Tyson's absence, the heavyweight scene might have unfolded differently and perhaps some fights that were never made could have happened as his presence might have triggered the need for Bowe or Holyfield to take other fights than they did or the financial pull of a potentially huge event or purse might have enticed Bowe and Tyson to take a fight against each other. Not to ignore but mention, that the loser or certain losses of the title might have then forced that fighter to take some great fights or risk by necessity (such as Bowe/Lewis, or Lewis/Tyson or Holyfield/Lewis). '92 through '94 or even '95 might have been the capping off of the entire Tyson era with some amazing fights at heavyweight (whether Tyson won or lost would have been less relevant than the way the era would be viewed as culminating with the greatest "big four" going to head to head in their primes and not to mention a few other fringe names or past greats thrown in as well).

 

Fact is the prison sentence saved Tyson from even more ass kickings, it was a blessing in disguise for his career.