bowe vs patterson....

An all time great fighter should always be taken seriously in any matchup. Agreed.... But if we're basing this on a certain degree of probability ( about the only thing you can do in fantasy fights), then the cards don't stack up well for Floyd Patterson. Its true that Riddick Bowe struggled life and death with Evander Holyfield as you say. But Holyfield and Patterson had little in common stylistically, and Evander, while smaller than Bowe, was nearly 20 lbs heavier and something like 3 inches taller than Patterson, plus had a chin that would prove far more reliable than Floyd's. Bowe beat him two out of three regardless. Fighting Bowe on the inside and trying to out hussle him with mere handspeed would be a mistake for a man who was frequently floored or even KO'd by men of far less punching ability. I also think that a stoppage would be highly unlikely for Patterson, given that Riddick was never stopped in over 40 pro fights. Once again, Patterson's legacy is something to be respected, which I do in very high regard, but there are few head to head matchups that I'd favor him in, and Bowe simply isn't one of them.

 

evander was no more than 5 pounds heavier than pattersons highest weight for the first 4 years as a heavyweight and less than 2 inches taller than patterson. The size diferential is neglegable.

Of Riddick's 40 fights only 7 were competative and he was on the floor in 3 of those 7 fights.

 

Both men had varying weights throughout their careers, but Holyfield's average prime weight was around 208, whereas Patterson's average prime weight was somewhere around 188. That's a 20 lbs differential, and that doesn't even take into account that most of that difference was solid muscle. Sure there were times when both men weighed a bit more or a bit less, but I'm talking about what they looked like in their primes.

Well boxrec has Patterson listed as 6'0" and Holyfield at 6'2 1/2". That's NEARLY 3 inches, which is exactly how I worded it the first time.

With all due respect, Patterson was floored some 18 times in his career, and with some of those occasions even resulting in knockouts. Not all of these knockdowns were in competitive fights or against quality opponents either. From memory, Bowe was decked only by two men - One of whom was an all time great who Bowe beat twice, and another who was a hard hitting top rated contender who fought Bowe on the backside of his career, and fought dirty on top of everything else. Frankly, I don't see how these points help Patterson.

 

i cant see anything other than a bowe victory by stoppage

 

By age 22 Holyfeild was still only 177lb where as patterson was 186lb at age 20. Holyfeild was 24 years old before he was as high as 186lb. Naturaly there was not much between them, in fact without body building evander was smaller and less developed than floyd.

Holyfeild was more than a half inch shorter than Holmes.

Patterson had more competative fights over a longer time.

 

So what? Body building or no building, who was the bigger and stronger man in their heavyweight primes? Hell Floyd was 182 lbs when he beat Moore for the title, which wasn't even as big Holyfield was when he unified the cruiser weight crown. Frankly, I don't see where any of this helps Patterson against Bowe. Do you honestly think that a 22 year old 177 pound Holyfield was the same man who fought Riddick Bowe years later at over 200? This really seems like an effort to stretch things.

EDIT - Just checked your statement about Floyd Patterson " being 186 lbs by age 20", and you're wrong. Floyd turned 20 in January of 1955, at which time he was a mere 168 lbs. For the bulk of calendar 1955, his weight would range from 168 - 177, and at no point during this period, did he ever reach 186....

Throughout his entire career, Holyfield has consistantly been listed as being six foot two and one half inch. If this has somehow changed then I'd like to see a credible source. I will also ad that while I accept Patterson's current listing at six foot, you may want to note, that at times he has also been listed as only being five foot eleven inches.

Perhaps, but who did he beat or trouble that would suggest his having a chance against Riddick Bowe? Patterson was KO'd by ingemar Johansson - a cruiserweight sized euro fighter with barely 20 pro bouts. He was floored by Pete rademacher who was debuting. He was decked by Roy Harris who had all but 9 ko's in 23 wins. He was utterly destroyed in a combined two rounds in both of his fights with Sonny Liston. None of these things lead me to believe that he'd beat a 6'5", 230 lbs champion who at 25 years of age was unbeaten 32-0 and had just defeated a prime Holyfield, plus would retire with the claim of never having been stopped. Floyd was far to prone to getting decked or stopped by lesser men, and while he had boxing ability, was no Ali or Holmes.

This has become a rather moot point.

 

I miss read the year but I am not trying to stretch things. I have re checked, when Holyfeild and patterson were both aged 22 years old patterson was 10 pound the heavier. It demonstrates that by nature they were a simular size. Had they lived at the same time floyd might have been the bigger? as big as he was as a mature man of 21 Bowe himself was as light as 218 - a mere 18lb higher than pattersons top weight. who is to say In the same era that might be the advantage?

How about a photo of 6'3'' Larry Holmes towering over evander?

Ingo also knocked out machen, something nobody else did for many a year. For a 28 fight career Ingo had beat 9 rated heavyweights altogether, its a prety good ratio for a european who went international.

Patterson took some tumbles because he leaped around and commited to the punch, but then he took more 50-50 fights. The only fighters who truly rang his bell were Liston and ingo- Two ATG big hitters- and he won 2 of 5 fights against that duo. Bowe was "out" against Holyfeild, all over the place against hide, who knows how he would have fared against Lewis and the other top names of his era since riddick only fought Holyfeild. where were Bruno, Foreman, Ruddock, Tyson, Moorer, Botha, mccall, Morrison etc?

Floyd fought Moore, ingo, cooper, chuvalo, machen, quarry, Bonavena, ellis, Ali and Liston. Had Floyd fought Frazier he would have met the entire era.

without beating a real conteneder. Thomas, seldon, cooper were coming off losses when he fought them. Coetzer was untested but perhaps the best. It was a hand picked 32 fights representing the majority of his career.

Who he also lost to even though he had such a size advantage.

He took TKO worthy beatings from golata but because the pole fouled bowe each time he had bowe at his mercy riddick kept geting saved. Forget what the record says, those fights were worth four KO defeats to bowe.

ingo and Liston were not that bad.

 

You misread again. Both men were fairly close to being around 180 in their 22nd year of life, with Patterson being the slightly heavier, depending on the month. At no point was he a FULL 10 lbs the heavier. More importantly, Evander was only a 5 fight prospect at age 22, wheras Floyd had been training as a pro for over 33 bouts.. These things make a difference, and once again, this doesn't show me dick as far as why Floyd would have a chance against Bowe, who fought a level of Holyfield that Floyd would never amount to.

"Had they lived at the same time", Floyd would have been fighting in an era consisting of some of the largest and hardest hitting men in the sport's history - a situation that would have been even less ideal than the one that he barely survived in....

You really like drawing at straws don't you? Patterson weighed 200lbs only once, and that was against a journeyman, who in all likelihood, did not train for.. Bowe was briefly less than 220 lbs ( still a **** of a lot bigger than Floyd ), when he was basically a kid. Now why not take a peak Bowe at 235 lbs and 25 years of age against Holyfield of the first fight and place him against Patterson who weighed 182 lbs against a 39 year old Moore? frankly if you want to pick at straws, then i think this is a more realistic way of doing it.

How about showing me that "photo" so that I can see it please? Also tell me what size shoes they were wearing.. Were both of them standing upright or were one of them bowing their heads the way that so many of them do when standing head to head? Could you also list sources stating that Evander was shorter than 6'2" 1/2 or that Holmes was taller than 6'3"? these things would be nice considering your persistance at claiming that Holmes "towered" over Holyfield.

He was a 194 lbs and with 20 pro fights against mostly crap opposition when he brutally KO'd a peak Patterson. WHEN did either Bowe or Holyfield completely get their asses handed to them by an opponent of such description at ANY point in their careers, let alone in their primes?

You credit Patterson for getting KNOCKED OUT in 3 of his 5 fights against ingo and Sonny, yet tread on Bowe for getting staggered ONCE against holyfield and label it as being " out" ??????

Let me state the record once and for all dude.... Bowe was NEVER stopped, Ko'd or yes even OUT..... And as for your other comments about Bowe being staggered by Hide and never fighting Lewis, Tyson, or Foreman? Well I sure think it would have been far more commical to see Patterson in the ring with those guys.....

WTF cares? we're talking about head to head matchups across eras where the playing fields changed from period to period.... And not waving legacy badges about who fought more ranked 195 pounders, with half of the names you listed resulting in losses for Patterson btw...

And tell me why those guys weren't any less capable of flooring Patterson than Pete rademacher or Joe Harris?

LOL... Seriously dude. Bowe might have dropped a majority decision in ONE of his THREE fights to an all time great champion; a match disrupted by a guy landing in the ring with a parachute on, but does that really make him look any worse than Patterson getting the living crap kicked of him by Ingomar Jonahansson - a fighter of comparable size and with less experience, yet scoring a real KO? or Pete Rademacher - a debuting fighter who floored the "champ" in the first round? Or Joe Harris - A fighter with 9 knockouts in 23 wins putting him on the deck????

Nothing listed in the above run-on sentence makes any sense whatsoever.

No they weren't " that bad ". At best they were probably decent, and managed to compile three ko's against Patterson.

 

I never knew anyone could get so passionate about a fighter who wasn’t passionate about being a great fighter?

Bowe turned into greg page the moment he won his first 50-50 fight and had trouble with fast smaller fighters. I still think patterson deserves a 50-50 chance against a greg page type.

 

I wouldnt say Holmes towerd over Holy.

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just check the fight. Holmes is a size bigger. its more than a half inch between them.

http://youtu.be/0pqesyFDH4w

 

Holyfeild was listed as 6' 1'' and a quarter inch in all of his LH and CW fights.

http://youtu.be/WKbdw6PL-yU

When he moved up to heavyweight evander was listed as 6'2'' but was shorter than Tillis who was anounced as 6'1''. Much later another extra half inch was added even though he shaved his head!

another 4 years or so time and evander will be billed at 6'5''...

 

Sure. He was so dispassionate, that he managed to win the heavyweight title and fought through three all out wars with the all time great, whom he took the title from. So dispassionate that he continued to fight back against Golata, despite getting hit in the nuts repeatedly and taking a horrific beating. Not to mention retiring with the claim of never being stopped and losing only once in more than 40 pro fights.

Comparing Bowe to Page is not even worthy of a response.

How many instances can you honestly list where this happened? Holyfield is about the only one, and as stated many times before, Patterson had nothing in common with Evander. Holyfield was measurably larger, stronger, far more durable, had a totally different style, and still lost two out of three despite these things.

Then maybe you should stick to matching him up with " greg page Type fighters."

 

Very well... I stand corrected. But I don't see you conceding your claims about Patterson and Holyfield's respective weights during the periods you listed, or at least not the last time I called you on it.

 

Agreed,'

In nearly every photo or film shoot where the two are standing head to head, Holmes hardly looks as though he's more than perhaps an inch taller than Holyfield at best, which frankly is not what most people would deem as " towering."