Boxers most consider great, that you don't

I've been shot

 

Not by me I have bad aim...but I do throw a pretty fair dart lol

 

Question about this bit

Ali, Foreman himself, Moore, and Frazier himself all rank Marciano above Frazier and Foreman. I can understand the hesitation of ranking him above Foreman, but what about Frazier?

Also Don Turner, Holyfield's trainer, ranks Marciano above Holyfield. Although Don can be a little, say, swayed by his fondness of Marciano.

Quite like me

 

Getting ready to turn in for the night...but in short I find Frazier’s 11 fight run from winning the vacant title till Forman 1 superior to Marciano’s title run. I find Feazier’s Win against Ali one of the three greatest in the HW division (Douglas Tyson/Schmeling Louis the other 2)...Marciano’s record without blemish makes it razor close..I do think the 3 slot you have him in to be very high...but I think you could argue 5-12 effectively.

Edit: + I am an unabashed biased Frazier guy, and all ties go to Frazier lol...and hypothetical H2H Frazier is the GOAT

 

Foreman vs Frazier is my problem when ranking Frazier lol

Have a good rest

 

Not sure I'd put Louis demolishing Schmeling over say Tyson/holyfield 1 or Ali/Foreman. More important culturally sure with all the geopolitics of the time but is 38' Schmeling really that great of an opponent?

 

Lol, neither would I! I was referencing Schmeling beating Louis in the first fight

 

I'm going to get heat for this, but J.Louis(dropped many times by less than stellar competition, also beaten in his prime by beyond prime Schmeling, his fans conveniently omitt that) Marciano ( who really did he beat, Walcott beyond prime. Charles, beyond prime, Louis, Moore, all beyond prime, 2 were better suited for Lt.heavy) The Kleitchko brothers, ( both were overrated) Mayweather jr(mainly his career at welter) Lomencheko ( he's shown me nothing, his amazing skill level was very routine 30 yrs and beyond ago. I see a fighter that's well managed . Joshua, and Wilder ( nothing close to special about either one. Their just better athletes than there competition .) Damn near every boxer of the last 10-15 yrs considered "Great". Berrera, Lopez, Pac ,Mosley Mayweather jr. Not included. But they were really products of the nineties...

 

This. Before I came to the forum, I wasn’t even aware of this idea of H2H as a way of rating fighters. I always assumed that fighters were rated on their relative achievements and by how they did in actual fights.

Of course, I enjoy theorising about how fighter A would do against fighter B but I would never dream of making that the basis of my ranking because it’s just a fantasy.

 

I think anywhere from 11-20 is fine but I’m with you, 5-10 is too high.

 

I agree it is a poor way to rank/rate...way to subjective. So much more sound to develop a criteria (although they will fluctuate from person to person as well), where a fighter is gauged of off his real life results and legacy!

 

That’s exactly it - couldn’t agree more.

 

I like the 1a/1b ranking for Ali and Louis - to me, they are transparently the two greatest heavyweights ever and you can validly argue it either way.

However, I don’t think Marciano deserves to be rated in that same company. Now, by all means rate him number 3 - even if I don’t personally rate him as high as that, an argument can clearly be made for him there. But rating him 1c is unfair on the other two and suggests pretty much equal accomplishment and level. I don’t quite see how that’s arguable.

Each to their own, though!

 

do you have to be a master boxer to be elite fighter

 

Oscar is a tough call - he’s always been a borderline case for me. His out of ring achievements and star power have tended to outweigh his actual in-ring accomplishments. And he seemed to lose more big fights than he won.

Biggest wins:
Chavez x2
Quartey
Whitaker
Vargas

Biggest losses:
Trinidad
Mosley x2
Hopkins
Mayweather
Pacquiao

He got a couple of debatable decisions against him (Trinidad, Mosley 2) but arguably balanced those out with a couple of favourable ones (Whitaker, Sturm).

Conversely I liked him more later in his career when he was fighting Mayorga and Mayweather. I think he was a smarter, more experienced fighter by that point - he was just physically not quite as good.

He is a great, but if I had to put him in a top 50 or 100, I’ve no idea where I’d place him.