Boxers That Retired At the Right Time?

Great post , pleasure to read .Thanks .

 

Lol, I actually thought of Fury, he ain’t shy but he definitely is the “retiring” type.

The Big Dosser.

I’m not a Gypsy nor from the UK but I believe I have applied that term correctly.

If not, then I say Bollocks to all of that.

 

Michael Spinks

 

You've named my first three!

 

Jim Watt.

 

Never mind the bollocks, here’s the Sex Pistols!

God Save the Queen and all that to my UK friends.

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Rocky Marciano
Marvin Hagler
Ken Buchanon
Floyd Mayweather, Jr.
Marlon Starling
Michael Spinks

 

I think Hagler did.. If he kept fighting after the fire was fading then he might have lost a couple more.. No shame in losing a coin flip decision to Ray.. It hurt him for many years but what it didn't do was tarnish his legacy !!

 

Much appreciated. As the OP, you're my primary audience. I read entire threads before I post, then try to address the OP's thread starting challenge.

Now you've presented another interesting question about premature retirements. Hope that what follows provokes vigorous discussion and dissent.


I believe that conditioning fanatic Tunney's best career performance was in his final bout over Tom Heeney. With Gene's style, first rate chin, experience, skill and intelligence combined with the fact he was still improving (and with increasing dominance), I have speculated that his rate of one title annual title defense can get him to Louis, then force Joe to win it in a rematch, both bouts going the Championship Distance with no knockdowns.

Bob Pastor and JJW proved that the Bomber would always have problems with that type of mover and stylist. Gene studied films very closely. For Louis I, he'd deploy the Schmeling I template, going over the top with his right. No KDs, but Joe wouldn't have an answer the first time around. Blackburn would teach his charge how to compensate for the rematch against a now aging Tunney. Joe's first title shot's probably around the time of Schmeling-Louis I, and becomes Joe's first defeat. He then goes the distance to win the following year around the time of Louis-Braddock, right after Gene turned 40.


1929.) Gene might defend twice this year. He'd already boxed Loughran earlier in their careers and might do so again. He could well knock out Tommy the way he decked the Philly Phantom previously. Loughran couldn't hurt him. A low risk defense against an ATG. Sharkey could be the other victim. This one goes the limit, and discipline with punch resistance carries the day against an erratic and inconsistent challenger who failed to defeat Heeney (on YouTube).

1930.) Schmeling W PTS 15 over Uzcudun gets the German to Tunney, but lacks the aggression and initiative to win. Extremely difficult to win a title via decision by counterpunching. Tunney doesn't pose the same susceptibility to Max's counter right which Louis prevented. Ultimately, I expect Schmeling to make the first reign of Louis a short one before Joe gets it back in their rematch, but Max isn't decisioning his predecessor as Champion in 1930.

1931.) The victim this year could be Strib.

!932.) There could be a title rematch between Gene and Sharkey again, and/or Schmeling. They're still the top contenders here, but we saw how dominant Tunney could be in rematches with Dempsey. Duplicate result/results again.

1933.) Primo is not matching skill, speed and experience with Gene. This looks a lot like Sharkey-Carnera I, only without a KD from Gene. We do have clips showing Loughran with some success on Primo. Tunney would sustain that success.

1934.) Max Baer was at his peak and this would be a big draw, especially with Tunney's old victim in Maxie's corner. Not nearly enough. If Maxie and Jack thought Loughran had schooled Maxie (Jack was the referee and judged Loughran-Baer), what do you suppose Tunney would teach the much slower Larruper? Gene, easy UD 15.

1935.) As good as Jimmy Braddock had gotten with his rematch win over John Henry Lewis, this is still going to look a bit like Loughran-Braddock in 1929. Tunney, UD 15. Jimmy will get his unsuccessful shot at Louis later.

1936.) An undefeated Louis makes his first challenge of Gene, but Tunney, like Schmeling and Jack Johnson with Jack Blackburn all see the same susceptibility Joe had to the right hand. Nor is the relatively immobile Louis going to have many chances to pull the trigger. They weigh the same with identical reaches. But Gene's a mover and has a much superior and faster jab. In 1937, Bob Pastor discovered immediately that he could feint Louis into knots, a ploy Schmeling also used with Joe in 1936. Tunney feigned out of long habit. In 1936, Louis later admitted, "I thought I was hot ****." He'd discover he wasn't. Tunney UD 15 Louis.

1937.) Louis did come closer to beating an aging Tunney in 1936 than any other opponent since Greb and round seven of Dempsey II, so there's loud clamor for a return title bout with an excellent gate. The older Gene gets, the harder he works, and he knows how to evade the mistakes he used to decision Joe in 1936. Now, in 1937, the 23 year old Louis, listening to and following Blackburn's instructions carefully is ready for the age 39-40 year old Tunney. Correcting all the mistakes Gene's wizardly brilliance used to decision the youngster the previous year, he plans to beat Tunney over that same Championship Distance. With two healthy hands (instead of the bad right which hindered him against Farr in his first defense), he takes the title via 15 round UD which keeps the crowd's attention because of the Bomber's knockout ability. That doesn't happen, but both finish with a measure of respect for each.

Gene finishes with a career record of 90-2-3. His reign lasts from 1926 to 1937, with 11 successful title defenses. His is considered the longest reign over Louis because of no wartime hiatus for Tunney. Gene probably retains the record for oldest HW Champion until Foreman breaks it in 1994 with Moorer.

Tunney is probably considered the GOAT until Ali's first reign. But if Muhammad correctly remains classified 4F for the Vietnam Draft and never goes into hiatus, he can the title from 1964 to 1981-1982, long enough to break Tunney's record as oldest HW Champion, and Ali also not only at least doubles the existing record of Louis with 25 successful defenses, he could go into the 60's in top shape without ever ceding his athleticism of the 1960's. I expect him to retire with the Championship and never come back, but a finale defeat would come from Holmes, easily the most likely to stop Ali short of breaking the records of Gene and JJW as oldest HW Champion. Larry wins both the title winner and rematch defense over Ali via Championship Distance UD. Once Futch and Arcel replace Giachetti in Larry's corner, it's game over for Muhammad. Futch taught Larry to stop lifting his left leg when throwing his right, thus tipping it off. If an aged Ali doesn't see it coming, he's not winning the decision.

Does he get dethroned in mid career? Even with a healthy jaw, I think Norton gets him unprepared for Kenny's style in a first bout taking place around 1975, but Ken's a one and done transient champ as Ali knocks him out in their rematch before taking the rubber match via UD. (From 1967 to 1969, Frazier just can't get close enough to deploy his body attack as needed to win a decision. Ali hurt Smoke badly in 1974. Joe may not last the distance in 1969.)

No rope a dope with Foreman if there's no hiatus for Ali. Muhammad simply stands toe to toe with Big George in mid ring and hits without getting hit. Look at what happens in Kinshasa mid ring. Foreman's admitted he wasn't able to compete with Ali in ring center. Couldn't hit him, let alone match hand speed.

I figure WW II might have cost Joe over 40 successful title defenses.

Joe's first reign doesn't last long as Schmeling gets him in late 1937, with the preparation he used for his knockout win, dropping Louis to 33 (28 KO) - 2 (1 by KO) - 0. But in 1938, the Louis-Schmeling rematch goes as it actually did, with Louis regaining the title quickly in a single round. The Black Ulhan of the Rein does clinch his place in history though as the only challenger to ever dethrone the Brown Bomber. If there had been no WW II, a rubber match would have taken place. Max had a style well suited for accommodating advanced aging, and he wouldn't have fallen for Joe's opening round blitz a second time. Schmeling's next outing, a single round one punch blasting of the rugged Heuser that's been on YouTube proves that Louis II had not diminished him in any way. Their rubber match is a chess match, but this time, Joe's jab and initiative overrides Max's counter rights for a Championship Distance UD.

 

Marciano was asked in the ring after knocking out Moore about reaching a magic number of 50 wins. Rocky was more than willing to try, but also getting sick of Al Weil's shenanigans.

He'd have wanted to go out with a win as memorable as Moore, but against who in 1956? Patterson was still virtually a MW and wouldn't bump his weight up until after Marciano was gone. Archie himself in a rematch? He won 11 bouts in 1956 before Patterson got him on November 30. Keep in mind again that Floyd wouldn't even contemplate the HW division until Rocky was gone.

Bob Baker was the #2 HW contender behind the Mongoose in 1955. Baker was in Ring's top ten in 1950 (#5), 1951 (#9), 1954 (#4), 1955 (#2), and 1956 (#8). He'd paid his dues in time for a final Marciano challenge, and was indeed discussed as a potential final opponent.

Maybe a stick and move guy, like Pastrano, who was hot in 1956 and ended 1955 by decisioning Rex Layne. Willie was 34-4-5 after McMurtry in August 1956. In 1955, Pastrano was the #5 HW (Patterson wasn't in the top ten then), in 1956, Willie was #4, and in 1957 he was #3. 1958 saw Pastrano as the #5 HW. From 1955 to 1958, Willie Pastrano was the only HW Ring Magazine always had in their top ten HWs. He was never decked by a head shot.

Undefeated Eddie Machen had a great sophomore year in 1956, and maybe the twin wins over big Nino Valdez gets him to Rocky in late 1956, although only at 15/16/17/18-0.

Nino himself? He was #1 in 1953 and 1954 behind Marciano, #6 in 1955 and 1957. However interesting the optics would've been though, he sputtered in 1955 and 1956.

Welsh cutie Joe Erskine beat Johnny Williams over the Championship Distance for the British HW Title on August 31, 1956. This left Erskine at 29-0-1. In 1957, he scaled 198 for Cooper II, a decision win over the Championship Distance. Against Pastrano in 1959, Erskine actually imposed his will and did the sticking and moving better in a masterful chess match. You can see Erskine's style in extant footage.

The great Harold Johnson sputtered badly in 1954 and 1955, leaving him out of title consideration for challenging or succeeding Rocky.


Fans wanted to see fireworks, but Pastrano was tough, highly skilled, experienced, and he'd get himself into the best condition of his career for Marciano. Willie would get taken out at some point, but fans would be satisfied after that it would be the perfect time for Rocky to hang 'em up.

 

The Sex Pistols were the dog's balls. If in doubt, being the dog's balls is apparently a good thing. Dogs themselves, the world over, seemed to be quite fond of their own balls.

 

I’ve just got one thing to say to you …

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There was a thread some time ago asking for speculation on who might have beaten Marciano if he kept fighting (not sure it specified if it was for only one more fight), and I speculated on Pastrano.

Rocky would sure be a step slower than he was for Walcott I, and Willie would present some of the same problems as a slick guy with gorgeous footwork. Not as big as Joe nor able to probably get Marciano’s respect, but maybe, just maybe, he boxes circles around him and sees the final bell to get his hand raised.

 

The Stooges? Wise Guy, Huh

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