Boxers that were world class but never made world class money

Thistle infers all Gilroy's losses were somehow tainted.
Thistle would have us believe Mills ducked him ,fact is Mills beat him and dropped him for a 9 count, he also beat the men who beat him, such as Olek, Shaw,Mcleave, and Berry


Thistle would have us believe Mills ducked Gilroy whom he had already stopped and took easier touches like Woodcock ,[who stopped Gilroy twice], McCvoy, Harvey, Baksi , Maxim, London, Lesnevich, Marshall etc. Mills put up a game fight against Woodcock losing on points over 12 rds,this was just a month after being stopped in a grueller for the world lhvy title by Lesnevich, 2 months previously Woodcock had dropped Gilroy 6 times for a 2 rounds tko.

In 1948 Stefan Olek stopped Gilroy in 4 rds 7 months earlier Mills had beaten Olek over 10 rds.

Ken Shaw twice beat Gilroy ,Mills fought Shaw twice stopping him both times ,the second time inside a round.
The idea that the English conspired to keep Gilroy away from titles because he was Scottish is rather silly. Ken Shaw was Scottish, he fought Mills in a final eliminator for the British Heavyweight title and lasted less than a round, yet he beat Gilroy both times they met.:think
Family loyalty is one thing, rational thought is often another.

 

But dont forget McVey, he wasnt just Scottish, he was Scottish/Italian:-(

In reality Gilroy was a fringe domestic contender who occasionally shows flashes of talent but who was inconsistent at best and never world class. He fought during a time period (WWII) which kept a lot of fighters/titles inactive and fights from happening.

Not surprisingly some have used this as a means of claiming that one fighter ducked another when the reality is something completely different.

Gilroy shouldnt be forgotten but he certainly shouldnt be remembered as some kind of all time great. Its no coincidence that nobody heard of Gilroy until his grandson got an internet connection and started talking him up.

My grandfather was a great baseball player that never got a chance to play in the big leagues but Im not going to sit here and compare him to Ty Cobb and expect to look like anything but a biased family member.

 

thistle1 is Gilroy's grandson ?
Never knew that.

 

He hasn't exactly shouted it out, but just about any boxing site that has information on Gilroy has a worshipping write up from Thistle/ James Glen.
Here is a sample.

http://www.inthewinningzone.com/wz/Magazine/April-2009/The-Nearly-Man/433/

http://www.monklands.co.uk/features/bertgilroy.htm


http://www.pugilistica.com/begifiprbyau.html

N. B . All of them originate from the same hand. Thistle/James Glen .Gilmour's grandson.

 

have you two got enough rope yet?

your statings of what I have proported to have stated is all over the map, wrong, inaccurate and off with respect to actual reports, my sources and material, but bang away. Here's a little more rope for yah.

 

I find the articles quite persuasive. Or interesting anyway.
I haven't done my own research so cannot comment on the accuracy or sources of some of the claims but that's pretty much the case with many similar articles about many other fighters.
Until someone comes up with something compelling that runs contrary to what is said in those articles on Gilroy, I have no reason to dismiss them.

For example, an interesting claim in one of the articles, Gilroy would have been favourite to beat McAvoy at one point in time, is food for thought. Either it's true, or it's not. I have absolutely no doubts that McAvoy was world class just about all the way up to 1940, and one of the best middle/light-heavies Britain EVER had. If Gilroy was really favoured to take him, then that's very impressive.

 

If McAvoy's grandson wrote an article stating Jock would have been favourite to beat Tony Zale at one point,what credence would you give it?

 

Ive only posted articles that you have made.
Please point out inaccuracies,and while you are at it, please show how ,going off his record from 1938 onwards Gilroy was world class?
A question I have asked you three times now, without any answer from you.

I have already said I admire your family loyalty,and I have nothing personal against you, but I do feel you are less than objective on the subject of your grandfather.

 

The identity of the author is irrelevant unless there's a contrary version.
If you told me your father was a forgotten successful boxer, or an unsung war hero or something, I wouldn't automatically cast doubts on that version. Unless I had compelling contrary evidence.

It's actually not surprising that 'forgotten' men would be 'discovered' again by persons with a family connection.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if McAvoy would have been favourite to beat Zale in the 1930s anyway.

So far, on Gilroy, all I have to hand is those articles, and 'boxrec' (which hardly ever paints even a fraction of a picture).

I remain open-minded. :good

 

I haven't automatically cast doubts on Thistle's opinion that his grandfather was a world class fighter form 1938 onwards , I have said that his opinion is not supported by his grandfathers record.

I 've also asked him several times to provide proof to substantiate his claims , he has not done so .


I operate on the premise that if you make a statement the burden of proof is on you to show it is correct, and true, not me to disprove it.
If I say my Dad would have beaten Joe Louis if he had been given the chance to do so, would you believe it just because you had never read a contrary opinion ?

 

arrogance is a worse character flaw than stupidity...

you asked me to provide sources(?), on Bert Gilroy's thread I did just that, re the Mills fight and other links, which appear not to have satisfied. you said in closing that you would look into his career & FACTS and get back to me, you never did.

I have given you some rope here; "Hangman, the latch!"

 

yes, saved me writing it, thanks.

 

on these boards we talk about fighters careers, FACTS and circumstances.

we discuss poor decisions, Robberies, Cheats, Corrupt officials & other Personel, we talk about fighters or management Ducking certain fighters. we discuss Pre Peak fights, Post Peak fights, Prime Peak fights, making Weight, drying out and conceding weight. we talk about fighting UP a division or divisionS.

we talk about ALL of these things and recognising them for dozens & dozens of fighters, but there is a defiant group that just expects everyone to believe that these same FACTS weren't relevant in Bert Gilroy's career... just a bit bias wouldn't you say, more Foul actually, even more foul than the facts that Bert actually faced. Criminal & Disgusting to be blunt.

OK lets start with Don Cockell here. Cockell wasn't even rated when Bert faced him(?). OH!

and first off British ratings don't count(?). Britain lead the world for lighter weights and a handfull of their biggermen were ALWAYS relevant on the world stage ESPCIALLY in Gilroy's time, they were second only to the Americans. the HW Tite the major point of contention and a serious need & obstical Britain were desperate for.

Cockell was No.1 L-HW in 1949 Britain - Gilroy, now a VETRAN fighter in his 17th year was No.4...

Cockell was World Classed that same year and broke the Ring's top 10 the very next year, 1950.

Giroy was in his last year and Cockell was the NEW British sensation at this point, but of course thats only relevant in other fighters careers :roll:.

 

I've asked you to show how off his record , you can justify calling Gilroy a world class fighter?

He never beat one, and lost to those he fought. Mills dropped Gilroy for a count of nine in their fight.
I've never read a report that Gilroy deserved the nod.
Mills beat the men that beat Gilroy,and world class opponents that Gilroy, for whatever reason did not face .

I therefore have to believe he was better than Gilroy.
I've never insulted you ,in fact I said twice that I admire your family loyalty now instead of adressing the point and providing subjective evidence that Gilroy was railroaded, you have chosen to resort to personal insults. Your case is non- existant , and your credibility blown. Time to move on.

 

next WORLD CLASSED - yeah I made that up, my own ratings...

where do you think the ratings come from?

"the RING"

Gilroy became World Class in 1938 and remained World Classed till 1949... he was No.1 in Britain as a Middleweight 1939 - 45 and No.1 L-HW from 1945 - 48.

in the Ring ratings Gilroy was not only a rated fighter just outside the Top 10, for 3 of those 10 years a full clasification above his fellow British contenders and for another 3 of thos years sharing the rating with 3 different Britis contenders at different times in those 3 years, Davies twice, McCleave onec & Hawkins once.

in 1942 Gilroy was suddenly & inexplicably absent from the ratings, though No.1 in Britain and STILL undefeated, 5 years at this point. :huh more on that later.