Boxers that were world class but never made world class money

Cerdan ALWAYS a Top 10 ATG middleweight...

1947 - Gilroy the L-HW is called on short notice to make weight for this fight, trimming down for approx 2 weeks and still severly battling the scales Bert is forced to dry out 48 hrs before the fight.

there's no shame in a loss to Cerdan under normal conditions nevermind in a suicide pact made by Bert's manager here. Bert's last chance at any title hopes. they had No Choice!

you'll note they didn't call on Roderick or Hawkins their middleweight champions to fight Cerdan, the champions who were put ahead of Bert for the MW title... NO, we'd better get Bert (who hadn't seen the weight for nearly 3 years), to fight Cerdan. Why I wonder.

 

Gilroy and the Heavyweights

Woodcock X2 - ranked No.9 (l-hw) and No.5 HW
Shaw X2 No.2 in Britain both times
Olek - No2 in Europe

Mills a L-HW cum HW
Cockell a L-HW cum HW

there were a few more but they were lesser fighters.

I'll tell you what lets let this evaluation of Mills answer these questions, about Bert fighting HWs...

Evaluation As A Boxer
Although Mills was not a stylish boxer, he had the necessary talent to gain the world light-heavyweight championship. In handing out punishment he was often prepared to take much punishment himself, something that boxers cannot continue to do over a long career. To make matters worse, he was often matched against heavyweights, conceding large weight advantages to his opponents. This was the case when he fought Joe Baksi and Bruce Woodcock (twice). Mills seems to have been willing to accept the challenge, but he should have been better protected by his manager and the boxing promoters.

If Mills had remained within his own weight division, he would have taken less punishment during his career and he might have remained world champion for longer than he did.

and just like other fighters that fought UP, but of course these FACTS and truths don't apply to Bert Gilroy - the 5'9" middleweigt who was smaller than Mills even - see pic of two in the ring over at the CBZ.

Woodcock 1 and Shaw 1 met with controversy and Bert technically beat Mills see report previously posted on the Gilroy thread "Mills recieves a lesson in Boxing & Footwork"

Malcolm Turner - Gilroy was ahead at the close, an UNSATISFACTORY ending!!!

 

thistle1,
If Gilroy was a natural middleweight, why did he have to drain himself to get to 12st5 against Cerdan ?

 

Where does it say that? This has NEVER been stated, written or discussed. In fact that claim has NEVER even been made against McAvoy which was bert's first and longest Title Right - first spoke of in 1938 and last spoke of in 1945, with Bert being No.1 for the Title from 1939-45 as you know.

the WAS however spoken of and directly accused of Ernie Roderick and his management... whom Bert was 'replaced' by in 1942, though bert was STILL undeafeated and still No.1 at the time... remember Bert's was missing from the Ring that year.

Roderick is given an Eliminator for the MW title, wins in and sits safely for 3 years before contesting the Title and of course winning it :huh:huh:huh.

I don't know but that set of circumsatnces ALONE, nevermind McAvoy or Mills or the handfull of robberies Bert suffered (OH anotherone of your lies against me, I'll get to that -bare with) is among the biggest peices of a blatant decision to ensure Bert ISN'T getting through!!!

for your info (no one's ever thought to ask me). Was Mills the best choice at L-HW for Britain?

answer - YES; and why might I say that?

because it was about Title, Prestige and Honour. It was about the Heavyweight title of the World, and to that point Britain hadn't couldn't do it.

NOW they had MILLS and Woodcock, and if one fails the other might succeed. True, but does that still excuse Bert form being given his title shot? ABSOLUTELY NOT.

they couldn't weren't going to risk and it was more about Mills than McAvoy.
Jock was coming to the end early 40s and he wasn't BIG or strong enough anyway and neither was the 'upstart' Bert Gilroy.

they couldn't, wouldn't risk it, Mills was being sold as a HW prospect and possible challenger to Joe Louis as early as 1940 (Ring magazine), by 1942 it was ALL Mills & Woodcock and not for L-HW titles, NO, it was for the HW Title and Joe Louis' Crown.

By 1944, before Mills even fought Bert a Formal challenge to Joe Louis was already made and negotiations were a constant. There was a long term plan drawn out here and Bert Gilroy nor anyone else was going to interefere with these laid out plans!

 

it was mentioned already Bert was competing as a Light-Heavyweight from 1945 onward and actually a few fights above the weight in 1944 aswell. He was called on to make the weight in two short weeks, he was No Where near it, in a reflective peice even 36 years later Ron Olver states "how he (Gilroy) made the weight we shall never know?"

it was an absolute impossibility. Crunch!!!

 

I'm glad Mills never got a shot at Louis!

 

Oh yeah, I remember you mentioned the Ron Olver piece before. :good
Is it safe to say Gilroy was past his best in 1947 ?

And what do you know about Vince Hawkins ? (this man was 60-0-1 at one point in his career, for what that's worth !)

 

Cockell was not world rated until the Febuary 1951 when he cracked the top ten as a LHvy at no10 that is 2 years after he beat Gilroy. Gilroy a veteran fighter?
Yes he was, he was 31, hardly ancient facing a 21 years old Cockell who beat him.
Cockell did not even fight for the vacant British LHvy title until October 1950 his win over Gilroy was a low key 8rounder.

Cockell won a final elimiminator for the British LHvy title stopping Jimmy Carroll nearly a year after he had beaten Gilroy.

Cockell cracked the world rating because he achieved 2 wins over Lloyd Marshall [ Nov 1950& Feb1951] and a European title win over Albert Yvel [March 1951.]
I repeat Cockell was not world class when he beat Gilroy he held no domestic titles and at 21 years old had not even fought for them.

Gilroy won a vacant Scottish Area middleweight title beating Tommy Smith to give an idea of the depth of quality of Scottish Middleweights at that time, Smith had lost his last 4 fights, and would lose his next 2 then retire Gilroy had already beaten Smith twice before contesting the Scottish Area title with him.

Gilroy defended the Scottish Area Middleweight title once, against Johnny Clements17-9-1. He had already stopped Clements twice , Gilroy won a dsq victory over Clements on this occasion. Clements would go on to have a further 33 contests winning 9 and being stopped 10 times.



Gilroy also won a Scottish area Light heavyweight title.
He beat Jock McCusker for the vacant title.
McCusker was 11-18-0 and had already been beaten by Gilroy.

McCusker had won 2 of his last 10 fights, he would have another 28 and win 9.
Gilroy defended his Scottish Light Heavy area title once in 3 years,against Jock Todd 14-4-2 .
Todd would have another 10 fights winning 1 of them.


Not exactly a deep pool of talent then.:think

I can well understand that you place such emphasis on Gilroy's career AFTER 1938.

When you assert he suddenly became world class.

Perusing his record prior to that we find he engaged in 43 fights over a 4 year period winning 26 ,drawing 4 and losing 13 being stopped 6 times, including 3 one rd ko losses .

Do you accept these 13 losses as genuine ,or do you feel he was robbed in them?:think

 

Hawkins was a very good but not great fighter, Old roy Witts told me he had modelled all of his fighters after him, Roy was a strong supporter of Hawkins

Bert's loss to Hawkins was one of Bert's robberies or questionable decisions... I was going to discuss the se in answer to McVey collectively but will do it here.

Boxing News reported that "Gilroy had never looked so 'ineffective", maybe he was affected by the weight?"

well that's saying something, here was one of Gilroy's least best performances and MANY people thought he still won it, and the very noted Frank Butler said, though he agreed with the decision "a DRAW would have been a fairer decision. Hawkins was No.2 in the world at the time...

they didn't want Bert Gilroy, he was orphaned by his own family - the british boxing fraturnity.

anyway McVey accused me of saying that ALL of Bert's losses were robberies.

NEVER, NEVER, NEVER!!!

4 loses & 3 Draws all ducment as poor decisions

DQ to Dave McCleave, farcical and needed to STOP this Gilroy who had only suffered 1 loss in about 40 fights at the time. the call near caused a riot and to add to insult they fined Bert!

Woodcock 1, Bert led the first 3 rounds, but Woodcock did come back, and 'probably' would have won it... But Bert was taking a count, was rising at 9 and called out. that decision did cause a riot in Leicster.

Mills - alraedy mentioned

Shaw 1, Gilroy thought to have won the Scots HW title in a close fought battle

and 3 draws Bushman Dempster, Ginger sadd & Pat O'Connor another near riot and a story in itself.

so sorry McVey, I really hate people that 'exagerate' another persons statements to build their own case. Bert had a few ligitimate robberies (again valid for thousands of other fightersd but not Bert Gilroy), and you in your rant suddenly accuse the person, in this case me of saying ALL of them.

NEVER!

 

There is absolutely no need to exaggerate . You lose your own case by your ridiculous conspiracy/robbery theories.

Then you resort to personal insults , the first refuge of a barren mind.

 

One wonders how much "drying out" Gilroy did , given he came in at 173lbs for this fight?

Gilroy had weighed the same 173lbs 2 months earlier ,when he fought Woodcock.:huh

In summary a domestic level light heavyweight got kod by a world class middleweight who ,at 31 ,was the same age Gilroy was when you implied he was past it when losing to Cockell.

 

I would tend to believe Ron Olver, if he said Gilroy was drained.

 

back to ratings and World classed fighters.

Ginger Sadd
Ben Valentine
Tommy Henderson
Jim Berry
Pat O'Connor
Tommy Smith
Jack Hyams
Johnny Clements
Ray McIntyre
Glen Moody
Jim Mount
Charlie Parkin
Charlie Knock

all of these fighters were World Classed by the Ring, Sadd a Top 10, the rest British Ranked and fringe contenders or grouped among the worlds middleweights from all nations.

Bert's own rating found him grouped with the likes of Brouliard, Archie Moore, Apostili, Young Corbett, Fred Henneberry, Eddie Mcguire, Nate Bolden, Big boy Hogue, Jose Basora, Joe Carter, Cocoa Kid, Vic Dellicurti, Kid Azteca, Cheilewsk, Glen Lee, Ben Brown and others yet.

thats good company and there were still others yet, up to 48, but mostly 45 as a middleweight. Brit's and fighters from other Nations didn't break the Top 10 without their National title or the push from high boxing personel in their homeland, but it was mostly the title that was needed, and bert wasn't getting in.

 

We know he had one fight with Gilroy ,and beat him.We know that he faced McCleave,however , [unlike Gilroy, who lost to McCleave the 2 times he fought him ,] Hawkins stopped him in 5r ds in an eliminator for the British Middleweight title.

Hawkins was a career midleweight. 3 months after beating Gilroy he scaled inside 160lbs when contesting the vacant British Midleweight title.
Contrast this with the fact that Gilroy scaled175lbs 3 months before he fought Hawkins, and 179lbs 8 months after, and you wonder how much weight Hawkins was conceding Gilroy when he beat him?

 

Was he drained when he fought Woodcock then?:huh