Boxers who would have done well v. kickboxers or MMA fighters

Discussion in 'MMA Forum' started by FighterInTheWind, May 2, 2020.


  1. FighterInTheWind

    FighterInTheWind Member Full Member

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    As a martial artist who's done some rudimentary boxing training (and watched whole lot more), I was asked by some friends recently to dissect a hypothetical boxing v. traditional TKD/karate match-up. I don't want to regurgitate what I said, since I don't want to drown this forum in controversy, but then we also moved to a follow-up discussion that may be even more interesting and worth pondering here: Which great boxers would do well against karatekas or kickboxers or even MMA fighters?

    The first guy that came to mind - and immediately - was Roberto Duran. A point that I wanted to stress to my friends was that a classic "out-boxer" like Ali would fare horribly against a karateka or kickboxer, because you cannot out-range or out-distance a kicker with a punch. Instead, you need to be able to close quickly, be able to deliver devastating blows, and have good enough of a chin to survive at least glancing kicks (I don't think even Hagler can survive, say, a full flush spinning back heel kick, because the power of a kick is exponential to a punch). Duran fits this requirement perfectly: He can close like no other; he is "hands of stone"; and his chin - while not comparable to Hagler or LaMotta - is excellent. A bonus is that his boxing was really an amalgam of boxing/grappling, and he could easily learn to translate his shorter punches to elbows at the distance he operated. Also, the guy was a mean son of a gun, and he had serious street fight credentials, from what I have heard.

    Who else do you guys think? Hagler was another guy I thought of, though Duran checks of the boxes far better except chin. I know people will say Tyson, and sure he has the physical tools and skill set; but does he have the mental toughness? Oh, and you can't pick boxers who were also actually accomplished karatekas/kickboxers, etc.: So no Samart (who may have been the greatest Muay Thai fighter of the last century) please! ;)
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2020
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  2. The Senator

    The Senator Member Full Member

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    Duran is a proper choice for this one, for already stated reasons.

    Lomachenko cross trains with some MMA/kickboxing techniques and would be athletic enough to adapt his style, I believe. I'd compare him in MMA terms to a prime Dominck Cruz, but much, much better, and his subtle close range skills could benefit him well.

    I think Dempsey could handle himself well in a MMA situation, able to close in fast, hit hard, and mercilessly follow up on a knockdown. Gloves of his time were smaller on average, too, so he'd be better able to deal with the 4oz gloves.

    Sam McVea actually did fight in mixed rules bouts in his time against jiu jitsu trained opponents. Once he figured out what he was dealing with, he crushed his foes. Certainly not the equivalent of a modern wrestler with well rounded skills, but I'd credit him for being able to adapt and impose his strengths.
     
  3. FighterInTheWind

    FighterInTheWind Member Full Member

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    Does Lomachenko have the chin and toughness? I am not sure he's been tested enough in the ring - though that's not necessarily a negative, given that he outclasses people so easily.

    Dempsey - no question.

    Sam McVey - I confess I don't know much about him. Thanks for bringing him up; it sounds like he's someone I ought to read upon!
     
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  4. The Senator

    The Senator Member Full Member

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    Loma's massive amateur record and his proven record against quality title level opponents seems enough test to me, he endured a shoulder injury early in the Linares fight and got up to put him away, which showed plenty toughness. The Salido fight might be seen as a counter point, but unless he's facing the MMA Bantamweight version of Cheick Kongo, Eusibio Pedroza or Andrew Golata, with a minimalist ref, then he shouldn't have to be concerned about those sorts of extracurriculars.

    I'd also add that his southpaw approach and his angles would make it tough for a lot of kickboxers to set up their bread and butter.
     
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  5. Rope-a-Dope

    Rope-a-Dope Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Any of the Thai boxers with some kickboxing background (too many to list) obviously.
     
  6. Mike Gould

    Mike Gould Member Full Member

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    Manny Pacquaio comes to mind as far as explosiveness and in and out capability. His foot speed and agility was very underrated.
     
  7. Toney F*** U

    Toney F*** U Boxing junkie Full Member

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    Mike Tyson could close the distance and land some quick hard blows
     
  8. Charlietf

    Charlietf Well-Known Member booted Full Member

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    Well, i trained only pure boxing in the past, now i train grappling,japanese jiu jitsu/ judo in the dojo and also i train a bit Of bjj with a partner that he is blue belt in bjj. Like Tyson admited, a boxer only punching with his hands has nearly zero chance to beat a guy with ability in grappling or wrestling.
    If you meant a boxer fighting in a mma fight but he is only doing what he knows.. Pure boxing then You need the typical rude,tough,strong,brawler like david Tua with heavy legs and low center of gravity.
    But if you meant that the boxer learned first some ground game then a natural athletic and strong guy like Holyfield could be a good pick . Honestly overall a boxer have poor chance.
    Brawlers like dempsey would do much better than guys like Ali or Holmes. A very long 6'7 guy like wilder with a huge right hand could score some good knock outs but he would be taken to the floor and finished, he has very weak legs no stability. Lennox lewis does not have the chin for a clean shot with mma gloves.

    If you are talking about karate then the boxer wins no doubt, a karateka is not a guy trained with a full contact you are not allowed to knock out your rival in a karate competition it is why was created the full contact.
    You can't even compare kick boxing or muay thai fighters with karatekas. thai and kick boxers are solid like rocks and they train and fight with full contact until the ko,their bodies are much more solid and their chins are trained for taking a full power shot
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2020
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  9. The Senator

    The Senator Member Full Member

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    I'd agree 100% with this, I think Holyfield was considered for UFC 1, although they didn't have a chance in the world to sign him for it, Wilder would be in a world of trouble if he didn't land a flash KO, and I don't feel like Lennox's style lent itself well, either.

    I'm also remembering now that Dempsey would be even better, having shown his knowledge in basic judo and wrestling techniques in some of the instructional books he co-authored, there's a great picture of him sinking in a guillotine, d'arce choke and a rear naked choke among other submissions in How to Fight Tough.
     
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  10. Charlietf

    Charlietf Well-Known Member booted Full Member

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    Overall a grappler or wrestler will close the distance and it is all over for the striker.

    [media]QvXjF1oadgk[/media]
     
  11. It's Ovah

    It's Ovah I am very physically burn you Full Member

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    Francois Botha actually competed in kickboxing for a prolonged stretch and beat some respectable names.
     
  12. Charlietf

    Charlietf Well-Known Member booted Full Member

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    Yeah he did fine against a good name like lebaner and lasted the distance once against bonjasky(he got ****ed by a high kick in other fight)
    [media]hhwjFhJWbls[/media]

    But like i said ,the type of boxers that makes fine in other contact sports with kicks usually are robust boxers with natural thick legs, a boxer never trained the impact in the legs so a thai or kick boxer will destroy his legs with low kicks and it is all over.

    [media]vMVhNUe-9L4[/media]
    To me : for a valetudo fight
    grappling/wrestling>thai /kick boxing>boxing
     
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  13. Charlietf

    Charlietf Well-Known Member booted Full Member

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    Yeah. I think that old school boxers like sullivan or jack johnson would do much better in a vale tudo fight. Dempsey was also a natural street fighter he was not a pure cute well schooled boxer
     
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  14. 70sFan865

    70sFan865 Well-Known Member Full Member

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    I think that most early champions would fare better than more modern boxers. Jeffries could be a monster given that he trained wrestling and got praise for it back then. Natural fighters like Dempsey or Fitzsimmons would be great because they were experienced in off ring fighting.
     
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  15. It's Ovah

    It's Ovah I am very physically burn you Full Member

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    Agreed. Someone like David Tua would have done well IMO, though he would have always been at a disadvantage to the taller guys who could keep him at bay with knees. Might have had a similar career to someone like Mike Zambidis.

    Very aggressive and heavy handed guys like Shannon Briggs and Corrie Sanders might have had some success as well. Their poor gas tanks wouldn't have been an issue in three or five round fights.

    Of more recent guys I think someone like Marco Huck or Helenius would do well. Huck because he's so wild and aggressive, Helenius because of his height, heavy hands and solid meat and potatoes punching style which reminds me somewhat of Peter Aerts.

    At lower weights Maidana would have been a beast.
     
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