Boxers who would have done well v. kickboxers or MMA fighters

Discussion in 'MMA Forum' started by FighterInTheWind, May 2, 2020.


  1. FighterInTheWind

    FighterInTheWind Member Full Member

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    Also, Silva is a 5th degree black belt in TKD; that's just not briefly training when you are "young." Do you know how long it takes to get a 5th dan black belt? At least 15 years of training - outside of McDojos.
     
  2. Charlietf

    Charlietf Well-Known Member Full Member

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    I will put it this way, most who practiced karate and taekwondo and now train kick boxing or muay thai almost always started with the softest traditional martial art and then progressed towards full contact depirte, nobody starts by kick boxing and then takes a step back and train karate. they go through that transition because full contact is necessary to compete in mma. This indicates that although some fighters practiced karate or taekwondo in their past, this is not enough as a hitting style for a ko fight.
     
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  3. FighterInTheWind

    FighterInTheWind Member Full Member

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    There is some validity to what you say. I won't disagree that generally karate/TKD is less comprehensive and thus less effective than kickboxing/Muay Thai, because hand techniques are a bit lagging in the traditional arts and elbows/knees virtually nonexistent (again, I'd except Kyokusin from this). But this is a bit different from what I gleaned as your initial position - which seems to be a version of "traditional martial arts suck and is completely useless in combat." This is the line of argument that draws my ire. But again, if you say something along the lines of, "on the average Muay Thai is more effective in MMA or in real combat than karate/TKD, because it is more comprehensive, etc.," then that's an argument I agreed with you in the first place.
     
  4. FighterInTheWind

    FighterInTheWind Member Full Member

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    Addendum: I should also add that traditional karate/TKD training also lags in terms of conditioning - both "punch resistance" and cardio - than Muay Thai. (Again, Kyokusin excepted; they literally toughen you up by hitting you with wooden boards and run virtual marathons, to exaggerate only a little.)
     
  5. Flash24

    Flash24 Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Having had a very painful lesson myself in a Boxer vs Karate match-up, I'll say this , A boxer shouldn't be underestimated especially in his wheel house, a boxing ring. I started in Isshin Ryu Karate way back in 1973, I wanted to be the Next Bruce Lee , after watching the classic " Enter the Dragon.
    I was fortunate enough to have had a very progressive sensei who taught "Out of the box".
    And implemented different martial arts concepts into our base style of Isshin Ryu, like Judo
    Tae Kwon do , Wushu etc. We won A LOT of local tournaments , because
    of this in kumites , or point fighting and Kick boxing matches across the state.

    With success comes arrogance and I even at such a young age I had the biggest head of them all,because I was very,very good.

    I began to follow boxing in "75" after the Thrilla , and really fell in love with the sport in 79, after
    watching Benitez vs Leonard. But, like most Karate practitioners, I thought I would be far superior
    in a fight. I decided in all my hubris to spar with a local Golden Gloves boxer. Me with my
    Black Belts, multiple different fighting concepts, against a fighter merely using his hands???
    Easy money......... So I thought.... We get in this boxing ring, I allowed to use all my tools
    easy fight right? WRONG! What worked in Kumites doesn't work in a boxing ring.
    Front snap kicks, wheel kicks, can easily be defensed against a boxer that has skills.
    If a boxer can slip a jab, he definitely can get out the way of a kick.
    He closed the gap on me, cut off my legs in a corner, and proceeded to hit my ass everywhere
    but the bottom of my feet,(So it seemed) Rising blocks, outside blocks, backfist, reverse punches, spinning back fist, I discovered had no effect, or power to them,and impossible
    to get off when trapped in a corner.
    I had my ASS handed to me. But I did find out I can take an ass whuppin.
    A valuable lesson was learned.
    It's very different today. MMA fighters have implemented Greco Roman , and Brazilian
    Ji jitsu wrestling . It would be very difficult even for a World Class boxer to defend against
    those skills (Just ask James Toney) . In my opinion unless the MMA fighter have absolutely
    no clue who the boxer is, and decided to go with a more stand up game, a boxer really
    wouldn't stand a good chance of beating any well schooled MMA fighter.
    Thank Lee Jun Fan for this. It was his vision that enabled " A Martial Artist" to be the ultimate
    fighter in today's fight game.
     
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  6. FighterInTheWind

    FighterInTheWind Member Full Member

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    Sorry, I missed this earlier, and a really good example. There are a lot of boxers who come from a high-level martial arts background - especially in East Asia. Many top Thai boxers were accomplished Muay Thai competitors; and many Japanese boxers with some karate background and the same with TKD for Korean boxers.
     
  7. Charlietf

    Charlietf Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Yes i will give you Rutten, he had a lot of potential but hardly he was a mma legend. Anyway he is one of the very few exceptions like i told you
     
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  8. Charlietf

    Charlietf Well-Known Member Full Member

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    I agree that a boxer can be competitive against a karateka but not at all against a thai boxer or kick boxer if they are at the same level in their respective disciplines,much less against a grappler or wrestler
     
  9. FighterInTheWind

    FighterInTheWind Member Full Member

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    Boxer v. a karateka/TKD stylist works out usually in favor of the latter due to more tools at their disposal - just as a karateka/TKD stylist v. Muay Thai fighter works out usually in favor of the Muay Thai guy. I am assuming, of course, someone who has had serious training in karate/TKD, preferably in East Asia - or at least from a teacher who maintained "old school" practices even if teaching in the West.

    In this context, my experience with a local Golden Glove boxer went differently than yours. It was a bit too easy - just like how Botha v. Le Banner went on early. I could hit him at will, and he was seriously busted up, even though I didn't go all-out. He had basically no familiarity and defenses v. kicks (this may be the difference between the boxer you fought and I fought). So I started clowning, lost my distance, and got too close. Heck, I was having such an easy time that I thought I could out-punch him, too! Then wham. I got hit with a huge cross - just like Le Banner did - and I lost my mind and started flailing to get him back. I don't think I threw a kick the rest of the session, and I got whipped. There was no question but for ego trip I would have destroyed him though; and he and his dad admitted as much, and he was far more damaged afterward then I was.

    But again, having some familiarity is the key. This boxer had literally no idea what he was getting into. Even a week or two session with dealing with kicks would have far better prepared him.
     
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  10. FighterInTheWind

    FighterInTheWind Member Full Member

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    At the same level and size the boxer would have virtually no chance, unless he had some familiarity with how to deal with kicks.
     
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  11. Charlietf

    Charlietf Well-Known Member Full Member

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    The only "problem" with the karate is that they don't train (most of times) with full contact, because the karate has a good Arsenal of blows. If the karateka is a guy who trained with full contact he can beat a boxer, sure
     
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  12. FighterInTheWind

    FighterInTheWind Member Full Member

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    All my assumptions are based on non-"McDojo" student who have had serious experience in full contact sparring ;)

    As I said, when I was growing up in Seoul, all-TKD sparring was not only full-contact, but pad/glove-less. So unless you were defensively responsible, you'd get seriously f--ked up. The pain of getting side kicked or reverse punched on the solar plexus is...

    There was one drawback to this kind of full contact though. People didn't want to initiate sometimes and just would stand and stall, because the cost of making a mistake was potentially catastrophic. I heard some TKD teachers (like Hee-il Cho in Rhode Island) used to try this stuff when they first began teaching in the West, but legal liability issues made them stop very soon.
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2020
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  13. Charlietf

    Charlietf Well-Known Member Full Member

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    The best quality I can highlight about a karateka is speed, especially with kicks to the face, in my area there is a young man who is a karate master and wants to fight locally in MMA, so he trains grappling with us and sometimes at end of the class we make some friendly sparring sessions of mma, the boy is really fast
     
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  14. Ra's Al-Ghul

    Ra's Al-Ghul The one and only! booted Full Member

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    I actually think Virgil Kalakoda was more impressive in K1 than Francois Botha, even with his punching technique.
    The later one was complettly destroyed by a small French-Algerian second-tier K1-fighter.
     
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  15. Rope-a-Dope

    Rope-a-Dope Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Oops...I guess I should have read it more carefully and not missed the last sentence.
     
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