Boxing Historians: Worst excuses ever used to duck a fighter

I have the book and gave a very positive review of it on another site, for which Clay courteously thanked me. It doesn't in any way contradict what I have said, in fact it confirms it!

Johnson signed to fight Langford in the autumn of 1908.johnson did not become champion until 26th December 1908! So yet again your original post ,which was soley designed to heap yet more sh*t on Johnson ,was incorrect.
Peggy Bettinson was a racist and a notorious penny pincher when matching fighters, his edict was responsible for no black fighter being allowed to contest for a British title for decades! The NSC was a self appointed body whose President was the 5th Earl Of Lonsdale it had a monopoly on promoting and as such could offer whatever purses it deemed fit. It has changed addresses several times and I've attended shows at both it's most recent venues The Café Royale and Grosvernor House.

Bottom line Johnson signed to fight the 3 premier black challengers to his title several times but circumstances beyond his control meant that they did not happen.

You cannot dispute or deny this, because you know I can prove my statement,you've done your best to throw some mud here but as usual it has not stuck.Now let's get back to the thread!


Epic fail on your part!

 

I can't give them stick for not fighting each other.I'm less relaxed about the way the older brother took care of bogeymen such as Purrity and Sanders for his more vulnerably chinned younger brother.

 

I think it is harsh to blame two brothers who are extremely close for not fighting each other. If they had have fallen out and then fought it would have been great though, the thought reminds me of cringeworthy, sentimental garbage MMA film 'Warrior' starring Tom Hardy (great actor) which is about brothers who fight each other for the title.
I do hate it when fighters refuse to fight someone just because they are friends like Ward/Dirrell or Tyson/Bowe, examples like those are actual 'ducks' to me.

Some of the examples in this thread are pretty lame (the ducks, not the posts) - I didn't know Holmes ducked Page or Dokes and it tarnishes the image I have of him a little. Other ones, like Cooney throwing shapes a bit too vigorously are hilarious.

Deontay Wilder ruling out Ortiz as an opponent because he has a positive drug test in his past is an obvious duck since the Cuban is VADA enrolled and Wilder has fought others who have been caught before as well as talking about facing others in the same boat but who pose less of a risk. It is disgusting how the WBC allow Wilder and Stevenson to campaign as their World Champion for years against a never-ending stream of voluntaries.

 

It's not harsh at all.

They both wanted to be heavyweight champion of the world. The heavyweight championship of the world held great prestige because it was honor given to the man who was considered the best fighter in the world. The man who could beat every other man in the world. That's why the heavyweight championship historically meant more than all the other titles.

They weren't trying to SHARE a welterweight belt, where the holder isn't expected to even be able to beat a guy who weighs more than 147 pounds.

The heavyweight championship was always different.

That's why at one time the heavyweight championship was considered the greatest prize in sports. Because it meant you could beat every man in the world.

Both brothers knew that before they turned pro.

The Klitschkos punched other human beings in the head for a living. They punched each other in the head routinely on their way up in the gym. They weren't "soft." They are hard men. They beat people up for a living. They take pleasure out of it.

The fact that they ALWAYS approached the heavyweight championship as something to SHARE with each other always bothered me (and others).

You can't go a decade a more without the two best heavyweights in the world fighting. It hurts the sport. And it kills the division. As the actions of the Klitschkos proved.

As a fan of the SPORT, I frankly don't care if any fighters "love" or "respect" each other.

I would be pissed if any two fighters decided to SHARE the heavyweight title and create a promotional company where they could both profit from each others' title defenses by KEEPING THE TITLES SPLIT.

The heavyweight championship isn't a TEAM trophy. One guy holds it. One guy stands above all others.

When they were both holding the belts, Wlad would claim he was the heavyweight champ. Vitali would claim he was the heavyweight champ. But they both refused to fight each other to prove who was best. And the division was placed on the back burner and was considered a joke by young fans.

There's a whole generation of fans who followed the sport for the better part of 10 years and never saw a significant heavyweight title fight.

I'm glad Joshua knocked out Wlad in a big time heavyweight title fight.

But if Joshua signed a deal with Wilder to start a promotional company tomorrow and the two of them said they were going to SHARE the title, refused to fight each other and profited from each others' fights ... writers around the world would GO NUTS claiming they were destroying the growing interest in the division just when it was starting recover ...

But they kept their mouths shut while the Klitchkos did just that for most of this century.

Sorry, if you want to be the heavyweight champion of the world, you have to prove it in the ring.

The Klitschkos NEVER really did ... because they refused to fight the best opponent out there during their entire reigns. Instead, they agreed to never fight.

Wlad was 41 years old and had engaged in nearly 70 pro fights, before fighting the guy who was considered the top heavyweight in the sport. (And he lost.)

Most world heavyweight champions have had to BEAT the best fighter in the sport just win their title. Wlad and Vitali BOTH went their entire pro careers and NEVER beat any heavyweight considered the best in the world.

Both are to blame. There's nothing harsh about that.

 

Well it's harsh to me. You are entitled to your opinion and I'm not even saying it didn't hurt the sport but fighting your brother strikes me as strange (is there any examples of this in history at championship level?) and if they did fight I doubt either would have the necessary intent which would also devalue the world HW title.

While your argument about Vitali never fighting the best HW is valid, it does not hold true for Wlad since Vitali retired (twice) leaving the younger Klitschko as the apex predator in the division for a period of time far longer than most other champs with Povetkin, Haye, Peter or whoever the next best HW in the world.

Your other points about sparring (not close to the same thing as competing in a fight) and Joshua & Wilder doing the same (2 guys who don't even know each other, never mind being brothers) are invalid.

 

You had the Thomas drug addict excuse as well and i'm trying to remember the Witherspoon rematch one.

 

Yes, other brothers in boxing have fought. Brothers have fought for titles. Other brothers (and sisters) have competed against each other in contact sports. Brothers who are boxers have been arrested beating each other in altercations outside the ring. Brothers in all lines of work have even punched each other. You may even know a few who have.

It's a lame excuse saying they didn't want to hurt their mother's feelings. Their mother and father were hard people, too. Their father cleaned up the Chernobybl disaster. They lived in a community contaminated by radiation. Their parents knew the surroundings were dangerous. They kept their kids there anyway. Wlad said he played with toy boats in radiated water. Their mother let them beat up other kids and men as boxers. Their mother let them pound each other in training.

This wasn't the Beaver Cleaver family or the Brady Bunch. You can't approach it as "I wouldn't hit my brother so I wouldn't expect them to hit theirs." They weren't pacifists.

They both enjoyed beating up other human beings for a living.

I can understand why that's difficult for many to wrap their heads around because you likely don't punch grown men in the head for a living.

They did.

Second, when did Wlad beat the BEST heavyweight in the world? Ever?

Who was the world heavyweight champion ... the best fighter on the planet ... who Wlad beat to become the best fighter in the world?

He didn't. Ever. He beat a series of guys rated lower them him, and he grudgingly earned the title through attrition by beating lesser guys. No one knew who was better ... Wlad or Vitali. But they were the two best.

Wlas never knocked off the King to assume the throne. Neither did his brother. Had they faced each other, they would've.

And it is relevant regarding Joshua and Wilder. The heavyweight champion of the world is ONE MAN. It doesn't matter if you're related or not ... if you decide to form a company and win the belts and become the top two heavyweights ... and keep the title split so you can profit off each others' defenses ...

You're tarnishing the sport's biggest prize. AND THEY DID.

The Klitschkos hurt the sport. Blaming their mom for it was weak. It was simply a financial decision. If you ask Vitali, he'll say he was the best. If you ask Wlad, he'll say he was the best. They both wanted the glory without earning it by knocking off the top guy.

But neither proved it by beating the best.

I'm glad there are new champs now who are starting to clean things up and maybe make the division great again. Because the Klitschkos did tremendous damage by choosing to share the title. I'd slam any other two heavyweights for doing the same. The Klitschkos don't get a pass. They stated early on their intention of holding all the titles together.

It didn't happen by chance. That was the plan. If Wilder and Joshua announced tomorrow they wanted to rule the division together and share the proceeds ... and that was "THEIR" plan ... they'd simply be following the Klitschko playbook.

 

@Dubblechin , I wouldn't mind hearing about the brothers who fought each other for the title if you have the time, sounds interesting.

You believe the Klitschko brothers didn't have a problem fighting each other but instead didn't with the intention to milk more money out of boxing, fair enough.

I do believe they had a problem with fighting each other and didn't mainly for this reason.

Just because they had no problem being violent to others doesn't mean they had no problem turning that same violence on each other, they are obviously very close. Me fighting my brother or any normal sibling fights are not the same as 2 highly trained professionals going at it, in fact most siblings don't fight as adults as far as my experience goes. I don't see the relevance of the Chernobyl disaster either. As tough as the Klitschko's no doubt are, they are not savages and outside the ring behave as gentleman.

I can't tell you off the top of my head if Wladimir ever faced the number 2 in the division (I assumed he would have at some point during Vitali's inactivity but could be mistaken and even if not then number 3 would suffice fror me given the situation) but I recognise his reign as THE dominant HW of his era and I give both a pass for not fighting the other, if you or others don't that is your prerogative. I still can't agree with your Wilder/Joshua analogy and I don't agree it is "lame" of them not being willing to face off but I am also glad an exciting new heavyweight era is upon us after the relative dullness of the Klitschko's.

 

Mike Tyson wanting Don King to face George Foreman instead of himself.......

 

That is one heckuva post. Due to much of the above i can never get overly excited about rating them too highly. By hook or by crook neither beat the their closest rival.

 

Was he punching them like?

 

"I ducked Quarry & Shavers! Yes they were that good" from Foremans twitter.

I had to put this bc its funny in itself" THEY WERE THAT GOOD"...oh boy!!!!! lol


"Hey, you hit too damn hard.’ Foreman on shavers.

Heres a guy ducking bc he thinks a guy hits to hard( Foreman would have pasted him)

i had another quote i cant find where shavers called foremans house and foreman said no and hung up on him.

this also shows why 70's foreman was not as mentally strong as you think he was.

 

I didn't ask when he beat the number-two guy in the division. I asked when Wlad beat the Number-one guy in the division.

That's usually how you become the heavyweight champion of the world. You beat the heavyweight champion to become the heavyweight champion.

Neither Klitschko did that. Ever. And when it was clear they were the two best - and they were for many years -- and it was a tossup who was better, neither met the other. They decided to share the titles and profit from each others defenses.

Also, many brothers have fought over the years. I'm not going to look them up for you - I'm sure you can manage that. It was written about quite a bit when the Klitschkos held both titles. A couple of Asian brothers fought for one of the big three world titles. A father and son fought each other for some title in Europe. Brothers in the States fought each other (the Jakubowskis stand out as one such pair). Rocky Marciano famously fought and knocked out one of his brothers (who boxed under an assumed name when the original opponent didn't show up - although that was basically a fixed fight). The Currys nearly killed each other fairly often (Bruce was insane). Before the Charlos came around, the identical twins the Travis and Tarvis Simms fought (one was champ). They got arrested for pummeling each other in a domestic situation. The Klitschkos even talked about their fighting in the gym and how heated things got because they were highly competitive.

When Michael Spinks beat Holmes, there were even articles written about how he should give Leon a shot at the title because Leon needed money. (But Leon couldn't even beat cruiserweights at that point.)

Hell, HBO routinely discussed the possibility of the Klitschkos fighting each other one day when they first started appearing on HBO. It was a routine question during their early profiles on the network. HBO would've loved to air that. They were ALWAYS open to it.

Nobody raised an eyebrow about brothers fighting until the Klitschkos said "their mom would get upset." Like their mother was a saintly old woman praying on her rosary in the corner ... and not the wife of a Soviet colonel who had no qualms about leaving her kids all day alone in a radiation zone or who had no problem when they decided to hang out with Ukrainian mobsters or punch people in the head for a living. These weren't/aren't soft people. No matter how proper they may act in front of reporters.

It was a lame excuse. It would be if anyone competing for the heavyweight championship used it.

You don't PURPOSELY SHARE the heavyweight championship. You either are the heavyweight champion or you aren't.