Boxing Power and MMA Power are not the same

Discussion in 'MMA Forum' started by Joeywill, Mar 10, 2024.



  1. outtieDrake

    outtieDrake Well-Known Member Full Member

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    no they dont.

    The tim syvia ray mercer scenario happen because they were both scheduled to have a boxing match first that got canceled by the commission and so they agreed to stand.

    Tim being 300lb out of ufc, a overall bum in 2009 led to a punchers chance happening.

    a ufc reigning champ in 2024 is going to have enough skill to avoid a one punch ko.

    It is much harder to get a instant ko with a guy who knows he can easily take you down and get an easy win than to land the perfect punch. Even on the feet the mma fighter can calf kick the shins of a good boxer and cripple them a distance away. Using kicks is like a boxer who has four arms and the bottom arms are longer. A boxer just using his two arms and no grappling is very much at a disadvantage as supposed to a mma guy who has the same access to the same tools in boxing.

    a boxer can learn bjj grappling like everyone else, but they may never catchup to a guy like Jon Jones, Cryl Gane is an example.
     
  2. TMLT87

    TMLT87 Active Member Full Member

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    Mercer/Tim is something that would be repeated if those kinds of fights happened regularly imo. I reckon a boxers punchers chance would work out for them 10-20% of the time in MMA even at the top levels. There is a risk element in shooting in for takedowns or using kicks, you have to keep your nerve and get the timing and distance right, if you mess up you'll be off balance and open for a counter. I would not be surprised at all to see plenty of MMA guys lose their nerve on the entry, overcommit etc or fight stupid and end up putting themselves into bad situations vs a boxer, and when you're dealing with the kind of power, hand speed and accuracy that boxers tend to have you only need to give them a small window and it could cost you big especially with 4oz gloves and no counts. Also while boxers dont have the technical aspects trained, they are athletic, quick, have good footwork and fighting instincts which could make them more slippery than expected in a grappling situation.

    As for the Gane/Jones thing, I agree, there are always going to be high level grapplers around who are just too good for you to be able to catch up, but there are also a lot of guys in MMA who ARENT that great at grappling and primarily strike. Thats why I used Poatan and O'Malley es examples, two guys who got all the way to the belts. Also Ngannou, Strickland and Izzy were champs not that long ago. I would not count a boxer out against any of those guys in an MMA fight.
     
  3. outtieDrake

    outtieDrake Well-Known Member Full Member

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    10-20 % unlikely, it’s closer to 1-5 % if the mma guy chooses to stand for a long period. one punch kos are rare even in boxing where there is a large skill gap.


    All the guys you mentioned have bjj belt rankings, middleweights have very few good grapplers. same with heavyweight, look at last week tai tuvasa has a white belt ground game, but these guys dont last once they face a real grappler. A boxer who cross trains is no longer a boxer, they are a mma fighter, same with Poatan, he’s a mma fighter now.

    my main thesis has always been a boxer needs to train mma like everyone else.

    footwork is also different in mma, a big cage changes the dynamics, when you have wide space and kicks, a boxer can’t commit to the same punches lunges, his lead leg gets kicked or ankle picked.
     
  4. TMLT87

    TMLT87 Active Member Full Member

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    One punch KOs are rare in boxing because they have bigger gloves, counts, and guys are generally better defensively. Flash KOs are pretty common in MMA though, you're pretty much always one good shot away from being completely ****ed under those rules.

    You really think if we rolled the dice on a boxer vs MMA guy under MMA rules 100 times the boxer is only gonna catch the MMA guy 1-5 times? that the other 95-99 times the MMA guy is going to correctly execute the gameplan, avoid getting into dumb exchanges etc?

    I do agree, of course, that a boxer who cross trains becomes an MMA fighter with a boxing base.
     
  5. Drago

    Drago Member Full Member

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    For he start:

    I made the same mistake as you when it comes to Mercer. I posted it below a clip of Hatman Strikes Back, and he made a reply video on my comment. I am the guy he mentions in the beginning:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGBTwbIYNo4

    Mercer had a surgery after the Lewis fight, and his chin was gone, he was never the same as before. He was also KOed by Briggs and Wlad Klitschko later.

    About the power in general:

    I know the guy who posted this thread here was only about MMA, i mean UFC, PRIDE, Strikeforce, ROAD FC etc., and not about classical styles.

    But since it seems there are people who honestly think AJ (or Wilder) hit harder as the hardest guys can kick, here I have some numbers for you:

    ALL YOUTUBE CLIPS START ON THE RIGHT SPOT

    1) Bas Rutten was measured in the show Fight Science punching a bag with bare fist, MMA glove, and boxing glove, and a myth in combat sport got exposed: The difference was only 10 lbs / 4.5 kg of force. So MMA gloves and boxing gloves have a similar power. Only with the bare fist his punch was 18% harder:

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    PS: Dont talke about "oh Wing Chun is such a rubbish" etc., it isnt about the Wing Chun, its only this WC instructor saved Bas's video and has the numbers there.


    2) Deontay Wilder was measured in the Breazeale fight. The clip was shown before the Fury 2 fight:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlp9ZQstMW8


    3) Wlad Klitschko was measured in Germany before the Pianeta fight (only in german, sorry):

    https://images.live.dumontnext.de/l...864&w=1000&s=03b33e960108b59619a4e8461820503d

    https://www.express.de/sport/schlag...chko-trifft-gegner-pianeta-mit-700-kilo-51665


    4) Bren Foster (5th degree black belt in taekwondo) was measured in Fight Science with other kickers):

    https://youtu.be/Gnu94B6Edrs?si=d0tsxqEprhh70ZIo&t=351


    Here are the blank numbers:

    Rutten's right hand: 641 lbs = 291 kg

    Wilder's right hand: 1360 lbs = 616 kg

    W. Klitschko's right hand: 1543 lbs = 700 kg

    Foster's right kick: 2300 lbs = 1043 kg



    Note:
    The three punches from Rutten, Wilder and Klitschko were measured wearing boxing gloves. Foster's kick was measured barefoot (he wasnt wearing shoes). A statistic from Bas Rutten showed a boxing glove reduce the power about 18% of force compared to bare fist.

    This means with bare fists, Klitschko and Wilder could hit 18% harder, means Klitschko around 826 kg and Wilder around 726 kg. Both still far away from 1000 kg.

    And if Foster would wear a solid street shoe instead of being bare footed, i am very sure he would top the 1043 kg. Foster's bodyweight is only 168 lbs = 76 kg. Should underline what power kicks can reach.

    A leg is longer and stronger as an arm, and the hardest kick will always be harder as the hardest punch. I never found any record of any other combat sport fighter who reached over 1 ton (1000 kg) in a punch or kick, Bren Foster is the only.

    And Ngannou was never kicked to the head by an elite kicker like Jerome Le Banner, Ernesto Hoost, Remy Bonjasky, Andy Hug, Peter Aerts, Semmy Schilt or Mirko Cro Cop. I doubt AJ hits harder as Wlad and Wilder. Freddie Roach said Wlad and Foreman have a very equal power. Wach took Wlad's shots, Chuvalo took Foreman's shots, so i think its very realistic they could take Wilder's shots too.

    So much about POWER.

    If a guy like Bren Foster would kick Muhammad Ali (among the toughest fighters ever) with such 1 ton shot in the stomach or ribs, i doubt Ali could continiue. It simply breaks 2-3 ribs together, and they could penetrate in the lungs. Even Earnier Shavers most probably didnt hit so much harder as Wlad or Wilder.
    Freddie Roach said Wlad and Foreman have a similar punching power.
     
  6. Drago

    Drago Member Full Member

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    Since there are too many videos, here again:

    For he start:

    I made the same mistake as you when it comes to Mercer. I posted it below a clip of Hatman Strikes Back, and he made a reply video on my comment. I am the guy he mentions in the beginning:

    This content is protected


    2) Deontay Wilder was measured in the Breazeale fight. The clip was shown before the Fury 2 fight:

    This content is protected


    4) Bren Foster (5th degree black belt in taekwondo) was measured in Fight Science with other kickers):

    This content is protected
     
  7. outtieDrake

    outtieDrake Well-Known Member Full Member

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    yes. If you matched AJ vs Jon Jones, the odds would be around -600 for Jon Jones, and not -300 like it was for AJ/Francis, even the odds makers know better.
     
  8. outtieDrake

    outtieDrake Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Firstly
    Mercer was tko standing by Wlad, and then he fought Musashi got chinned dropped, and then fought Briggs and was beaten down against the ropes with some noggin punches. Given the fact that Mercer was still fighting at a world level and gave a WLad and Lennox a decent fight, and then fights an average kickboxer and looks bad, should tell you that just because a guy has good chin boxing or power punches, doesn't mean he wins a striking match with other combat athletes. Boxers don't have super powers.

    What your stats are telling me is that a punch can't hit as hard as a kick ? which is one of the main reasons why chin resistance in mma has to be solid at a high level, there are plenty of good kick boxers and thai boxers in mma now, especially in One, Mighty Mouse defeated a muay thai champ, and had to stand with him in a fixed rule match that made standup rounds.
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    Ive shown you examples where you had mayorga at 40 (not that far from the cotto fight) with decades of boxing experience face a 24 year old kid who was 2-4 record. A negative record mma fighter with some minor mma training was able to match Mayorga and win , all he did was keep his hands up, throw leg kicks, and use a thai clinch , and he brutalized Mayorga's body. And that was Mayorga with mma training, as he showed some grappling prowess.

    As far as mma gloves is concern , power is not the only factor, remember that boxers punch with boxing gloves in a way that would normally shatter their hands if they wore smaller gloves, boxing punches are very impractical with smaller gloves/ bare knuckle, this is why old school boxers pre Queensbury emphasized body punches. You can make the argument that a boxer punches harder with gloves, but is he going to punch the same way with mma gloves? knowing he could shatter his hands on someone's forehead? The cranium punch is often not used in mma, the one that Aj used on Francis, it's usually the chin which is taught in mma schools to avoid hand breaks.


    I know that you brought up the gloves power test as an example that boxers with padding can still hit harder with cushion, but that isn't conclusive enough, you are bringing up the exception. Aj isn't the general rule he's the exception, If Francis landed a clean shot on Aj, he would also have fumbled.

    Like i said earlier, it's the punches you don't see that drop you, Ngannou has a tough chin, but he didn't see what was coming, he didn't brace for impact. If you watch slap fighting they have rules for tensing your face to dampen the blows. Because when you know it's coming, you tense up your face and even move slightly to the direction of the punch to ward off impact.

    Lastly people here neglect that Aj hit Francis with clean hard punches in rnds 1-2 with a full gas tank, probably the worst possible impact from Aj. Ngannou still managed to get up and brush off the 1st two kd. Thos the 2nd one did rock him bad.

    In mma Aj would have had to defend grappling, and work his way up to his feet, people neglect that mma is more exhausting and fills your muscles with blood and thus weakens your power level. Boxers look like they hit harder, because all they do is punch, they have less output and only throw punches with big gloves without worry of hand breaks, takedowns, clinch fighting, subs, so they look like they hit harder when it in fact it's just a fresher gas tank.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2024
  9. Mark Anthony

    Mark Anthony Wilder needs to retire Full Member

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    No takes ages to learn to defend takedowns.
     
  10. Mark Anthony

    Mark Anthony Wilder needs to retire Full Member

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    That`s low level MMA, even a prelim UFC fighter would destroy a top 10 boxer, they would destroy them with leg kicks, that`s what happed to Mercer in a different MMA fight that he had.
     
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  11. Joeywill

    Joeywill Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Odds in boxing are nonsense. Joshua was 15/1 vs Ruiz and Mayweather was 7/1 vs McGregor. Obviously Ruiz had a better chance than McGregor,

    Odds don't reflect what is most likely to happen, odds reflect what the public thinks is most likely to happen
     
  12. TMLT87

    TMLT87 Active Member Full Member

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    What about if you matched AJ vs Ngannou? Gane? Tai? Lewis? Rozenstruik? that new TKD guy? you dont think he'd spark some of those guys out early just through sheer athleticism and power?

    Lol @ the mental image of Derrick Lewis shooting for takedowns like his life depended on it.
     
  13. TMLT87

    TMLT87 Active Member Full Member

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    Depends who is doing the takedowns.
     
  14. outtieDrake

    outtieDrake Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Odds reflect perceived public perception, they do get things wrong but they are in business for a reason. If i was a book maker id price Jon -800 or -600 vs AJ. Aj has a puncher's chance that's it, he would lose by the first takedown , dont see him getting up without being choked like Gane.

    Believe me those guys can wrestle, I've seen Lewis takedown Tai, he'd want nothing of AJ on the feet.

    Tai perhaps would be the only one who'd perhaps try and put on a show or would be awful at it. Rozen has a decent sprawl, there is a lot of evidence he can grapple enough to stop AJ.

    This is an example when you have a hw boxer in his mid 30s facing a 40 year old wrestler with minimal cross training. Again i don't see the devastating punching power again that stops people in boxing. I see another average striker in mma who cant get his shots off a wrestler. Several times Williams lands, and his punches do absolutely nothing.

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    Williams also had a judo background and mma training. Charles gave up by exhaustion in the third round, a part of it due to ref constant standing up the fight, and being out of shape. the fight was ruled tko (exhaustion) . i think the video gives an insight to how helpless the average boxer would be when a wrestler constantly shoots for their legs. Even a very average old wrestler at that.
     
  15. Mark Anthony

    Mark Anthony Wilder needs to retire Full Member

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    Gane`s leg kicks would destroy AJ.