Boxing Quiz

Great post. I thought you might have also asked specifically about the scoring of Leonard - Hagler. No doubt question 6 will give a decent hint tho.

 

1. Your heavyweight top 5, ranked on whatever basis you like, but specify this basis.

Louis, long rein champ, 25 defenses, 12 years as champ.
Ali, beats Foreman, Frazier and Liston. 19 defenses. Was bigger than boxing.
Marciano, clean out his era. Unbeating Champ. Has great wins over Walcott, Charles and Moore.
Dempsey, million $ gates. was a superstar. Up the purewses of past fights.
Johnson, first black heavyweight champ. Mostly will be rember for the Jeff fight, and Burns. He could have defended against black fighters, BUT he did beat them on the way to the title. A all time great imo.

2. Rank the "Fantastic Four" in order, with the reasons for your ranking.
SRL
Hagler
Duran and Hearns?? Its hard, they all have loses to each other, might put Duran last because Hearns blow him out. But he was the only one to beat SRL on the cards. Hagler is 2, lost to Leonard, but beat Hearns. Hearns beat Duran, but lost to SRL and Hagler, its making me dizzy lol.

3. Give your opinion on the "No Mas" incident. No comment, Duran had plenty of action imo.

4. Where do you rank Rocky Marciano?

Top 5 imo. Clean out his era, even if he lost he would still be there imo.
Wins over Walcott, Charles and Moore are top wins imo.
And when he retire, there was hardly any one left. Patterson didnt have much to fight when the Rock left the divsion in the rampage he did.


5. Describe how you think boxing has generally changed over the decades. What has got better since (for example) Dempsey's day? What has got worse? Rambling on is strongly encouraged.
Better? Health safer rules. That I suppose. I mean I think Tyson could have killed some one under Dempsey's rules. Also the fights to the finish were not needed imo.
Worse is 12 rounds, gloves size, and politcs stopping fights from happing.

6. Give your opinions on Sugar Ray Leonard.
SRL is a great fighter, fast, under rated power. Well be rember for his wars with Hearns and Duran. Hagler could have went either way. Perhaps the best fighter of his day.

7. Describe one or two big historical events and their impact on boxing history.

Johnson Jeff change boxing forever, mostly not for the good, it brought the color bar back, stronger than ever, and race riots.

Ali Fraizer's impact on the sport is still felt.
Biggest fight ever imo. 2 unbeating fighters. Lots of views on race and poltics. War in Nam ete.

 

Top 5 Heavyweight Rankings:
These change a bit for me, from time to time.

5. Jack Johnson

You almost have to rank Jack Johnson highly just on the hell he went through to become champion. It was not easy being black in the early 1900's, and Johnson endured a double dose of hatred. Whites hated Johnson because he was black, and good. Some blacks hated him because he didn't act according to society's standards, and thought that his defiance of the racist majority brought a bad name to all black people. Johnson fought during a time that white fighters could duck black fighters by claiming that they did not believe in fighting people of another race. Johnson had to prove he was the best black heavyweight in the world long before he proved he was simply the best heavyweight. Notable wins came against Sam Langford, Bob Fitzsimmons, Jim Flynn, Tommy Burns, Al Kaufman, Stanly Ketchel, and Jim Jeffries.

4. Lennox Lewis

Lewis had a booming right hand, stiff jab, and has a victory over every fighter he has faced. With sixteen successful title defenses, spread over the course of two reigns, he ranks third amongst the heavyweight champions. He had a suspect chin, and was not always properly motivated for his fights; but only suffered two set backs in spite of these flaws. It would have been nice to have seen how he would have dealt with Riddick Bowe, but he was able to beat one man that had previously defeated Bowe(Holyfield) He also made short work of Andrew Golata. Golata had previously thrown two dominant performances over Riddick Bowe away due to fouls. Lewis also showed the ability to overcome adversity. He was in very close fight with Frank Bruno, and turned it on to stop him in the seventh. He was losing, in my opinion, to Vitali Klitschko; but seemed to be taking the fight over when that bout was stopped due to an awful gash near Klitschko's eye. Other than the aforementioned fighters, notable wins came against Razor Ruddock, Tommy Morrison, Ray Mercer, Shannon Briggs, David Tua, Hasim Rahman, and Mike Tyson.

3. Larry Holmes

Larry Holmes ranks second with his title reign of over 7 years. He also ranks second with number of successful defenses with a more than impressive total of 20. His level of competition was not the best, but he managed to defeat 8 men that held world titles at some point in their careers. Holmes had one of the best jabs ever seen, was an accurate puncher, and was able to pick apart his opponents 69 of the 75 times one was place in front of him. Notable wins came against Ken Norton, Ernie Shavers, Ossie Ocasio, Mike Weaver, Muhammad Ali, Trevor Berbick, Leon Spinks, Gerry Cooney, Tim Witherspoon, James Smith, Carl Williams, and Ray Mercer. Holmes was age 42 when he beat undefeated, 30 year old, Ray Mercer.



2. Joe Louis

Louis may have had the best offensive arsenal in heavyweight history. The closest comparison I can think of at this writing is a heavyweight Julio Cesar Chavez, but with a bit more power. He has the longest title reign of anyone, over 12 years. He also has more consecutive title defenses than anyone with 26. Notable wins came against Max Baer, Jack Sharkey, James Braddock, Max Schmeling, John Henry Lewis, Billy Conn, and Joe Walcott.

1. Muhammad Ali

Ali may arguably be the most famous athelete ever, but that is not why he ranks at the top of this list. He had a top notch jab, exceptional speed, great chin, a will to win like no other; and he fought during the divisions most competive era. He has the most notable win column of this list with Henry Cooper, Sonny Liston, Floyd Patterson, Ernie Terrell, Zora Folley, Jerry Quarry, Jimmy Ellis, Ken Norton, Joe Frazier, George Foreman, Ron Lyle, and Ernie Shavers.

Rank the "Fantastic Four" in order:
I hope you aren't talking about the comic.

1. Ray Leonard- He has a win over all of the others

2. Marvin Hagler- Has the next best record against the 4, amongst the 4.

3. Tommy Hearns- Ko'd Duran

4. Roberto Duran- Makes me a hypocrite, because I rank him higher pound for pound.

Give your opinion on the "No Mas" incident.
Duran showed up a bit below his form from the first fight, but I believe he was in shape. I really think that the reason that Leonard frustrated Duran, to the degree he did, is because Duran knew he wasn't going to be capable of winning that night. I think that Duran thought that Leonard had more than enough to carry himself down the stretch, and said to himself, "**** it."

I rank Marciano around 5th or 6th, depending on the day. Marciano had one of the divisions best chins, bone jarring punch, and seemed able to keep coming no matter what.Rocky Marciano's record run of 49 straight wins is, as of this date, still a record. In fact, he never lost as a professional. You might wonder how a fighter that never lost is not at the top of the list, but his level of competition is what stops him. For the most part, he faced the best he could. Joe Walcott was an excellent fighter, but was 38 years old for their first fight, and 39 in their second. Ezzard Charles may have been the finest light-heavyweight that ever lived, but the smaller man was into his 30's at the time of their fights. Archie Moore is another argument for best light-heavy ever, but was 38 year old out of his division as well. Marciano would probably rank 2 spots higher on this list if he had fought, and defeated (which was possible), Floyd Patterson. If he had faced, and defeated (doubtful), Sonny Liston; he would make an argument for the top spot.

Boxing is better in terms of human equality. Fighters are no longer able to draw the color line. Technique has also improved, especially from the 30's through the 50's. Boxing is worse in terms of competition. There is no supreme organization that forces the best to face the best.

Ray Leonard is one of the most talented fighters to ever fight professionally. Leonard was his era's pretty boy, much like De la Hoya was his, with a bit more to prove than did Oscar. Leonard fought on his terms, but left a little more to risked on the table career wise.

Jack Johnson forced whitey to take notice of his talents, and shot to death any feeling of physical superiority, when he defeated Jeffries. Joe Louis reminded whitey of Johnson's argument, and made them thank him for it against Schmelling in their rematch.

 

1. Your heavyweight top 5, ranked on whatever basis you like, but specify this basis.

Ali, H2H best IMO, 3 time champion, beat Liston,Frazier and foreman,unique

Louis, Best reign ever, Beat every contender in his era

Lewis, unified the division, beat Holyfeild, Golota and Tyson, fought everyone he could, dominated division

Marciano, Undefeated, cleaned out division,

Johnson, Went through hell to be champ, proved he was head and shoulders above compeition with a long reign, defensive master.


2. Rank the "Fantastic Four" in order, with the reasons for your ranking.

Duran, P4P great started at lightweight and won titles up at middle, top 5 lightweight, top 5 LWW H2H

Hagler, best Middleweight ever IMO, enough said

Leonard, won titles in 5 divisions, beat all of the four kings at least once,

Hearns, won titles in 5 divisons, most destructive win of four kings

3. Give your opinion on the "No Mas" incident.

I can see why Duran did it he was frustrated and at that time it was the most macho thing he could do

4. Where do you rank Rocky Marciano?

Look at Q1

5. Describe how you think boxing has generally changed over the decades. What has got better since (for example) Dempsey's day? What has got worse? Rambling on is strongly encouraged.

Good. safety rules, tv coverage is increased (more fights filmed, no fighters lost in time), Internet (easier to get old fights and news)

Bad. 12 round limit, alphabet groups, promoters protecting prospects, padded records, PPV,

6. Give your opinions on Sugar Ray Leonard.

good fighter

7. Describe one or two big historical events and their impact on boxing history.

might do this later

 

I rank mostly on accomplishments, with head-to-head speculation playing a small but not unsignificant part:

1. Ali: The best four heavyweights he beat is second to none, even though Frazier got the better of him when both were closest to their peaks. His record against ranked contenders is amazing.

2. Louis: Like Ali, he has an extraordinary amount of wins over top contenders, in the 30's. Only Ali and Louis have this and i think this is why they are clearly above all other heavyweights, while the difference between #3 and #7 is not THAT big.

3. Lewis: Fought and beat every style he faced, brings a tremendous amount of tools to the game and an unprecedented combination of size and athletic abililty.

4. Marciano: Undefeated despite starting late in his life and defending against the #1 contender five times and the #2 contender once.. which includes several HOF'ers. The fact that he knocked out every single ranked opponent he fought is unique and remarkable.

5. Holmes: Long reign and remarkable consistency. I felt he could've done more as champion, which would've placed him at #3. Still, a great heavyweight who had everything besides power and humbleness.

1. SRL: His record against the others is undeniable, and even if you think he lost the Hagler fight (i don't), he was supposed to get murdered by a guy who was active and hadn't lost in eleven years.

I think the other three are close. Hagler's wins are best, but he is also bigger than both Duran and Hearns.

2. Hagler.

3. Hearns. Some will argue Duran ranks higher, and maybe i'm compensating for the incredible amount of appreciation of Duran here, but i think the fact that Hearns blew out Duran, the most decisive victory of any match the four had, his near-victory over Leonard and accomplishments otherwise put him a bit higher.

4. Duran. Spirited effort against Hagler and he out-fought a peak Leonard fair and square, but the rematch and the Hearns fight leave a bad taste for me. He is the smallest of the four which lift the accomplishments somewhat, but i think on the same hand, it should be noted that Latin-American fighters always start very young and therefore start at lower weight classes. For instance, when he was 23 he was already fighter at 140 and a year later at 147. It's not like he made the step up to a higher weight class when he was 30, like SRR.

Well it's real simple. Duran hadn't lost in seven years and his ego was bigger than Panama, especially after beating THE man at welterweight. He felt he was too good to chase this clown in front of him, and after not preparing as hard as he should, he thought "i'm not into losing over all 15 to someone lesser than me just because i didn't train properly... i'll get him in the rematch". In fact, Duran said as much later.

Sidenote: Duran looked slow during the rematch, but during their first fight, i thought he was slower as well. Leonard had the handspeed, and power. This makes the victory even more impressive, but i can't help to think that if Leonard wasn't focused on outfighting him, he would've beaten him on points like he would've in the rematch had Duran not quit.

People will say that his opposition was weak, but upon further inspection, they were very strong. Walcott was close to his peak, Charles was still putting on impressive performances and Archie Moore was on a 48-1 winning streak. Joe Louis wasn't what he used to be, but even 50% of him was still a very worthy contender..... as is clear from the fact that he only lost to Charles and Marciano.

Despite all that, he beat every contender he faced AND knocked them all out. This is unique in boxing history for any weight class, as far as i know. What's more, if you look at Rocky, the first thought is "a skilled, slick boxer would school him", and on paper, Walcott, Moore, LaStarza and Charles are exactly the kind of boxers to expose him. Yet he knocked them all out. If his opposition really was that weak, then why has no one in history repeated those records? And i'm not just talking about heavyweights here, but any weight class.

For those reasons, i rank him #4.

The rules of boxing have changed since Jeffries' time, and so have the skillsets and strengths of its competitors. It took some time before gloved boxing developed however, and i think Tunney, Dempsey and Louis are pioneers here.

The next big change after that is the introduction of live televised fights, from the 50's on. Because of this big exposure, boxers didn't need to travel to every town and fight 10 times a year, most against relatively obscure opposition just to make a name for themselves. As a consequence however, top contenders also fought each other less and less. During the first half of the 20th century, only Pep was undefeated when he won the champion. During the second half, it's almost the other way around.

This tendence went even more extreme from 80's and 90's on, until a point now where it's almost an uncommon thing for a contender to have fought more than one contender before challenging for the title. World class boxers of the last 30 years definitely have better records, but gain most of their experience after winning the title.

Boxers today are definitely stronger, bigger and more skilled compared to those of Dempsey's days. They often are less experienced however and probably have lesser stamina. Because of improved nutrition and health care, i think it's not really fair to compare some of the recent champions to the ones of old. For instance, i think Lewis vs Dempsey, Jeffries or Johnson under 12 round rules with 8 oz gloves would be a mismatch.

Another important factor is that black fighters essentially were frozen out from being at the top because of racism, pre-1940's. White champions could conveniently duck behind the color line and only fight 50% of the opposition. Later fighters definitely proved themselves against a larger talent pool than for instance Dempsey, Corbett or Jeffries.

He's one of the greatest fighters that ever lived and arguably the best welterweight ever. To sort of quote Achilles here, SRL beat arguably the best lightweight ever, the best welterweight and best middleweight. He is perhaps the most complete boxer i've ever seen. What his resume lacks in quantity, it makes up for in quality.

For the first one i will go back several centuries, to the buying and trading of black slaves from Africa and all sorts of places (proud to be Dutch), which eventually lead to the segregation and racial division that had great consequences for boxing up to the 1940's, when Joe Louis broke it. Considering that this more than doubled the talent pool, it is a very significant.


To expand a little bit on that, the recent opening of Cuba and Eastern Europe to professional boxing has made a big impact as well. I haven't checked the facts on this, but today only one or two divisions have an American on top, where 15 years ago this probably was the other way around.



One other thing i will mention is not a single historical event, but the general increase in living standard for white Americans from the 20's to 60's. Between the first and second world war, life was tough, very tough, for white as well as black people. This gives birth to a large amount of white boxers and you can see this back in ratings.

From roughly the 60's on, most white Americans lived a pretty good life while black people lived remained relatively poor. If you look at the rankings, from the 60's on, there are very few white contenders (Quarry, Cooney, but they are rare). "The great white hope" says it all. The breakthrough of black athletes is a factor that blurs the situation a bit, but there is an unproportional decrease of white American boxers during that period.


Today's society is even more luxerious and i think this is one of the reasons that Cubans and Eastern Europeans produce many champions today, where life still is a lot rougher.

To finish with a perspective on the future: should pro boxing become legal in China, they could become the dominant factor in the lower weight classes. The rise of a "peoples champion", like Pacuiao in the Phillipines could lead to a breakthrough. A talent pool of a billion people that don't live very comfortable lives and who in my opinion are rather barbaric, sounds like boxing's goldmine.

 

1. Ali, best 'boxing' HW ever, one of the smartest in the ring, ever.
2. Louis, for his one-punch, KO at will capabilities
3. Marciano, for punch, mental toughness, and unblemished record
4. Tyson, for making the most out of a small body; unlimited fire!
5. Jersey Joe Walcott, I know, but I love his lateral, elusive style

Hearns, love that range and right hand
Duran, love that intensity
SRL, smart, knew how to win
Hagler, tough and skilled


Duran was simply frustrated by his inability to get to SRL. Also when you live in that world of full tilt intensity, it can become too much even for you.

Marciano? Top five heavy's, one of the best pound for pound to me Rocky's greatest assets were brains and heart.

How has boxing changed? I hate the alphabet soup. How many guys even on a board like this could name every champ. Not only that, but the number of weight classes. All done for commercialism, for profit, the more champs, the more title fights, the bigger the potential gate, actual and virtual. How has it changed for the better? I think the number of good fighters in the lower weights, MW and below, has increased multi-fold, largely due to the influx of Latino and Asian fighters.

SRL, the guy had Muhammad Ali smarts in there; so smart he was spiritual, rose above the physical.

Big event that effected boxing? How 'bout WWII? Probably don't need to elaborate, but how many great fighters had to put their career on hold to go to the war? But the bigger effect was after the war, when you had all these guys coming back and not a lot of work for them, so a helluva lot of 'em ended up in the ring.

 

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Not much needs to be said, was the best in an awesome era, wins over fellow ATG heavies such as Foreman, Frazier, and very capable guys like Norton and a whole host of solid contenders. Awesome footwork & movement, awesome speed, fantastic boxing ability, and when it came down to it, a great chin, a lot of heart and the ability to take body punches better than maybe any heavyweight ever.

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Composite punching skills to go with the best. Louis was pretty much complete offensively. Awesome punching power, speed, skill and variety. Dominated his era, would of competed with the best in any. If he got beat, you could be sure he would win the rematch, coming down to his ring generalmanship and strategist state of mind.

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Superb defensively, perhaps the guy who countered the jab with his own better than anybody else. Undefeated for 10 years, though a lot of these guys weren't natural heavies like Bob Fitzsimmons, Stanley Ketchell & Philadelphia Jack O'Brien. He certainly deserves credit though, even for making it to the stage where he could challenge for the world title.

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Here on the basis that like Holmes he dominated an era, but what was a better era having beaten guys like Tyson - although past his best - Holyfield, and a whole hosts of solid contenders. He would of succeeded in any era, size, a good jab and fundamentals, an under-rated chin and a bit punch, like Holmes the uppercut and straight right were the punches though I think he hit harder than Larry.

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Awesome fighter, best footwork and movement since Ali, the best jab in HW history, a solid chin and under-rated power, he had a very good uppercut and overhand right, but his resume is lacking. Despite his dominance and 20 defences, the names on his record simply aren't good enough. I've got him top 5 on the basis that I think he would of beaten most of the bigger names if they were around, and would of competed very well with guys like Ali, Frazier & Foreman in the 70's.

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Succeeded throughout the weights, from light to middle with great success, win over Leonard ranks among the greatest ever. Very good H2H to go with longetivity and success throughout the weights, I have him top 6 P4P.

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Only guy to beat all the other 3, even if it's debatable., and ranks very highly P4P like Duran. I'd have him around #14 P4P.

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One of the greatest middles ever and wins over 2 of the over 3, or arguably all 3. Dominated his MW era. Superb fighter with a granite chin.

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Transformed from a light hitting welter into one of the most devastating punchers of all time. In control against Leonard before stoppage, incredible knockout of Duran and gave us 3 of the best rounds in boxing history against Hagler. Power, reach, speed and boxing ability, he had it all to go with his success through the weights.

That's P4P.

On how they did against each other.

#1 Leonard
#2 Hagler
#3 Hearns
#4 Duran

I just think Duran had had enough. He was clearly frustrated from the way the fight was going and didn't want it to continue in the same vein. He probably knew Leonard wasn't going to tire, wasn't going to change his gameplan and was going to continue out-boxing him all night long, and therefore just wasn't in the right from of mind to dig deep and try and claw it back, and knew he would of lost a lopsided decision and therefore people might of wrote of all the great work he did in the 1st fight by losing embarrassingly in the rematch.

Marciano was a great fighter no doubt. I've questioned the guys resume, as I don't think he fought prime versions of guys like Louis, Charles or Walcott, but he was still a great fighter.

An undefeated record is usually a sign that a guy avoided the best, in Rocky's case I think he is one of the few exceptions, the guy took on the best that was available to him, it's a shame he retired relatively early and unfortunately we never got to see him in against guys like Patterson or Liston, or primer versions of Louis etc.

It's a shame we never got to see this guy a truely great era like the 70's, but his legacy is enough for us to say he would of competitive. Great chin, power with that winging over-hand right and a good left hook aswell, under-rated defensively with that crouching style and foreheard-using technique, relentless in attack, getting his opponent against the ropes and going all out with a two fisted attack and wearing them down with his relentless stamina over 15 rounds.

He would of troubled and beaten many an ATG heavyweight. And all this despite barely even being a heavyweight, weighing in more around 190 in his prime. Overall, I think the guy is easily a top 10 ATG heavweight, and would probably make a top 7 of mine.

I can't really be bothered to ramble on, but simply, I think yesterday was more about brute strenghth, heart and being able to take it and dish it out.

Guys were made to go much longer into fights, like 25 rounds for example, where they really needed to dig deep to stay upright, and be able to take a punch. And really it was more a case of 2 guys meeting in the center and the ring and beating the **** out of each other. So guys like brute strength, power and solid chins like Stan Ketchel or Jack Dempsey were going to succeed, although obviously Dempsey had much more than just power and a chin.

Nowadays, I think it's on skillsets and intelligence more. Fighters need to be able to time shots, counter punch, think about punches, move more and find angles more nowadays than they used to.

To put it simply, Sugar Ray was pretty much the complete boxer, especially offensively. He had fantastic hand speed, great boxing ability, good move around, defend him, had under-rated punching power, would put together some blistering combinations, could last the full 15 rounds, could find angles, gaps in his opponents defence and put together some very accurate punches, and he had a good chin aswell.

He's as complete a fighter as anybody I've ever seen. His resume may be relatively short but it's one of real quality with wins over guys like Hearns, Hagler, Duran, Benitez etc, and coupled with his mulitple weight class success he easily makes my top 15 of all-time.

Will do this a bit later or tomorrow.

 

Right, had a drink or two, so here goes:

The five greatest (emphasis as far as heavies go (as they tend to lack in ability compared to other classic eight weight divisions); Historical importance and redemption).

5: Jack Johnson
4: Larry Holmes
3: George Foreman
2: Joe Louis
1: Muhammad Ali

Ranking on greatness collected throughout their entire career:

4: Motor City Cobra
3: The Marvelous One
2: Ray Leonard
1: Duran

Duran's life style had finally caught up with him. He was annoyed that Ray was not falling for his psychology, and in a moment of madness, walked away.

Something he regretted within seconds, and something that got him fired up when needed to redeem himself throughout the rest of the decade

A fine fighter who made the most of what he had, which compared to some heavies was very little. It is a bit sad that all he is remembered for is the '0' which IMO should not be.

Rambling is my speciality!

The best thing about modern boxing is PPV's. If you have been to a closed circuit show with 500 people watching a 20" TV, with dodgy watered down beer, no volume and a picture flicking between colour and black and white, you would surely agree.

The worse thing about boxing now a days, is the Internet, it makes the fancy lazy.

Boxing used to be the true King of sports, second only in popularity to football, where you could to watch a local bill (amatuer or pro) every month and be properly entertained.

Also as you rarely got to see the very best, you really did appreciate it, when you were lucky enough to do so.

Fans now a day do not know how lucky they are, and most of them do not deserve it, as they did not earn the right!

Brilliant fighter, awful man, I never had any time for Macho Madness until he knocked down Leonard with a jab... superb. Camacho, I forgive you wasting your talent... Hey, I even forgive you running like a thief in the night against El Chapo.

The build up to World War II and the civil rights movement in the USA, was never more crystallized in sports better than when Joe Louis gained revenge over Max Schmeling, in arguably the biggest event in not just Boxing history, but in the history of sports.

The night in October 1974 when Muhammad Ali became to misquote Lennon, bigger than 'you know who', as he laid waste to the Foreman mystic (something George would need over 20 years to turn around), and became the nearest thing to a god we are ever likely to see.