Calzaghe aside- who is the GOAT at 168?

bailey,

Whenever I give you examples, you always want to do like for like comparisons with other fighters. But you can't do that, because everyone's circumstances were different.

The way you worded your previous text, read as though Collins retiring Benn was a big achievment because nobody else at SMW had stopped him inside the distance. But it wasn't impressive to me, because he was at the end of the road like Tyson and Oscar, where they had nothing left to give. Yes, nobody else at SMW made Benn quit, but I think he was a better fighter in those other fights. Against Collins, he'd reached the end of the road.

Well I respect your opinion, but I don't just look at who a guy fights, I look at the manner of the victories. Again, we're both in agreement that Eubank had a better resume than Toney, and we know all about Toney's struggles with the weight. But I would say that the version of Toney that Roy fought, was on the level of the version of Eubank that Collins fought. That's my honest opinion. Roy easily beat Toney, whereas Collins had closer fights with Eubank.

Then you've got the Benn fights that we've discussed in detail. Collins fought Benn, who was coming off of a loss to Malinga in 1996. But Roy had easily beaten Malinga, knocking him out 3 years earlier in 1993.

Roy also beat a decent guy in Lucas, after famously playing a game of basketball on the same day of the fight.

So all things considered, I have to give Roy the edge over Collins, in terms of their SMW wins.

Again, I respect your opinion. But I truly believe that the version of Froch who Ward beat, who went on to destroy Bute, was at a similar level to the version of Eubank who Collins beat. I don't think that Froch was a better fighter, or that he had/has a better resume. But I think he was operating at the same level as that version of Chris.

Kessler may have been slightly faded, but I think that the version of Kessler who Froch and Ward fought, was definitely a better fighter than the version of Benn who retired against Collins.


:good

 

You say when Hopkins was fighting at MW, but fail to note Hopkins at that time had been involved in possibly more fights above the MW limit and had turned pro inside CW

 

Look at how ash ruined his credibility by not responding to the

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post

 

Will come back to you later. You seem to try and engage me with long posts when I have several to reply to. I think you like to talk to me on ESB

 

"hey joe, jones and Hopkins are turning 40something soon"

"really? hey that cured my fear of flying!"

 

Joe eventually cleaned out the division, but he didn't fight Ottke. Which was a shame. I think Joe would have beaten him pretty easily.

 

You can spin it however you want.

Ward beat Froch with a fractured hand, and then Froch went and easily destroyed a top, undefeated fighter in Bute.

Hopkins was coming off of a recent win over Tarver, but did Tarver's weight loss affect his performance? Mackie Shilstone, who Bernard hired in preparation for the fight thought so.

Also, Hopkins always had trouble with movers, and he'd been beaten twice three years earlier by Taylor.

Not also forgetting that Joe's fight with Hopkins was close.

So there's many angles to look from.

 

That's one side of the story.

But why did Joe want to fight a MW?

 

I have to say that's pretty generous to Andre Ward. Neither Froch or Kessler was ever The Man. There was also too much controversy when Ward fought Kessler. While I disagree with Bailey who claims Kessler was faded (he had lost some of his sharpness but not much) the way Ward headbutted Kessler over and over again can't be called boxing :scaredas:

This may be one of those issues that are subjective, but beating up one of Calzaghes leftovers and then a leftover to Calzaghes leftover simply isn't all that.

 

Having the judges in your pocket is the ultimate way to become unbeatable. It's the trademark of a true great :toney

 

Easy.

All top dogs at SMW were ducking him so he had to start look in other weight divisions, but also there he was avoided :deal