Calzaghe debate part 2

Actually, the lacy fight wasn't the "touchstone" for JC..I rather think his win over Kessler qqualifies for that...but degrading the Lacy win is just so much 50/50 hindsight IMO.

 

I don't have any problem calling Calzaghe great...A very strange and hard to read style. In fact, I'd pick him over Conteh (Narrowly though)...

 

No it isn't:

Because the Sheika fight and others which showed Lacy's flaws and limitations occurred before he fought Calzaghe. And the evidence on tape is much, much more important than an article in a boxing magazine.

 

k, gon b honest ,
no one gives 1 **** bout calzaghe .
srsly , dude was good , but ppl hyping him up , so much ,
if anything else , the hopkins fight did prove tht hopkins in the prime ,
wud beat Calzaghe .

 

like him or not (again, i've **** on him almost as much as anyone on this forum) you've got to respect him for being the best 168 pounder ever and TRYING a bit in his last 5 fights to develop a solid legacy

 

m8 how the hell ,
is he the best 168 ever

 

who's better?

based on resume, legacy and skill, who ranks ahead of him?

jones was better but not their long enough to establish a true resume

benn and eubank certainly don't rank above based on their ledger

kessler is nowhere near and MAYBE froch will someday but he's not there yet

 

yeah people put jones into to 168 just so he ranks on top similar to hearns.


calzaghe is pretty much the best super middleweight that we have known.


grr lacy slapping ***** ducker old man ad nauseum

 

How can he when Andre Ward is about to humiliate him?

 

certainly possible but froch has a shot. i'd put my money on ward but i'll admit reassessing froch recently and he's got the goods

 

Not everyone shares your opinion...there have been MANY potentially fine fighters who would have gone on to much glory if it weren't for them being ruined by another fighter in a career-pivoting fight...lacy was one of them vis a vis Calzaghe. Most, I feel would disagree with you.

 

Lets see how many ranked SMWs JC fought year on year, the ones that were ranked when he faced them are bolded, the ones he never fought underlined:

98-99- Robin Reid, Juan Carlos Gimenez Ferreyra, Branko Sobot

Title Vacant
1.Frankie Liles
2.Joe Calzaghe
3.Richie Woodhall
4.Sven Ottke
5.Charles Brewer
6.Robin Reid
7.Thomas Tate
8.Vincenzo Nardiello
9.Andrej Shkalikov
10.Vinny Pazienza

99-00 - Richie Woodhall, Omar Sheika, David Starie


Super Middleweights

Title Vacant
1.Sven Ottke
2.Joe Calzaghe
3.Byron Mitchell
4.Markus Beyer
5.Charles Brewer
6.Thomas Tate
7.Frankie Liles
8.Richie Woodhall
9.Robin Reid
10.Glenn Catley

00-01 - Will McIntyre, Mario Veit

Super Middleweights
Title Vacant
1.Sven Ottke
2.Joe Calzaghe
3.Bruno Girard
4.Charles Brewer
5.Thomas Tate
6.Dave Hilton Jr.
7.Dingaan Thobela
8.Glenn Catley
9.Byron Mitchell
10.James Butler

01-02 - Tocker Pudwill, Miguel Angel Jimenez, Charles Brewer


Super Middleweights
Title Vacant
1.Sven Ottke
2.Joe Calzaghe
3.Byron Mitchell
4.Antwun Echols
5.Charles Brewer
6.Thomas Tate
7.Eric Lucas
8.Mads Larsen
9.Manny Siaca
10.Markus Beyer

02-03 Byron Mitchell

Super Middleweights
Title Vacant
1.Joe Calzaghe
2.Sven Ottke
3.Antwun Echols
4.Eric Lucas
5.Byron Mitchell
6.Charles Brewer
7.Mads Larsen
8.Manny Siaca
9.Anthony Mundine
10.Markus Beyer

03-04 - Kabary Salem, Mger Mkrtchyan

Title Vacant
1.Joe Calzaghe
2.Sven Ottke
3.Anthony Mundine
4.Antwun Echols
5.Danny Green
6.Byron Mitchell
7.Markus Beyer
8.Charles Brewer
9.Mads Larsen
10.Robin Reid

04-05 - Evans Ashira, Mario Veit


Title Vacant
1.Joe Calzaghe
2.Mikkel Kessler
3.Anthony Mundine
4.Antwun Echols
5.Danny Green
6.Jeff Lacy
7.Mads Larsen
8.Robin Reid
9.Markus Beyer
10.Manny Siaca

05-06 - Sakio Bika, Jeff Lacy


Title Vacant
1.Joe Calzaghe
2.Mikkel Kessler
3.Jeff Lacy
4.Markus Beyer
5.Anthony Mundine
6.Danny Green
7.Manny Siaca
8.Otis Grant
9.Robin Reid
10.Librado Andrade

06-07 - Mikkel Kessler, Peter Manfredo Jr

Joe Calzaghe, Champion

1.Mikkel Kessler
2.Anthony Mundine
3.Jeff Lacy
4.Markus Beyer
5.Librado Andrade
6.Lucian Bute
7.Carl Froch
8.Allan Green
9.Denis Inkin
10.Peter Manfredo Jr

07-08

Joe Calzaghe, Champion

1.Mikkel Kessler
2.Anthony Mundine
3.Lucian Bute
4.Jeff Lacy
5.Librado Andrade
6.Carl Froch
7.Allan Green
8.Sakio Bika
9.Denis Inkin
10.Jean Pascal

As we can see we had to wait until 06 for Calzaghe to take on a top3 opponent in Lacy, we then had to wait another year to take on the number 2 in Kessler. His best wins prior Eubank/Mitchell/Brewer/Reid were coming off recent losses. The underlined fighters shows how many 168lb contenders Calzaghe missed. He went 2 years without facing a ranked contender, although he was scheduled to face Glen Johnson during this time but pulled out 3 times complaining of a bad back, probably due to shagging around on his Missus who was divorcing him, many thought Calzaghe had wasted his career at this stage

 

Calzaghe looked better than Ottke against all common opponents.
Remember that fights like Pudwill and McIntyre only happend because American opponents backed out. Thornberry was ment to be a tune up for Collins who was meant to be on the same bill to create interest for a fight between them , only Collins unfortunately clapsed before his comeback happend

 

Your post wasnt quite right
After Eubanks fight with Calzaghe

1. Frankie Liles*, 31-1, WBA champ
2. Joe Calzaghe* (Britain), 23-0, WBO champ
3. Robin Reid (Britain), 25-0-1, WBC champ
4. Joseph Kiwanuka (Uganda), 25-1-2
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   (Britain), 45-3-2

After Reid came back with a win and Malinga lost Reid was rated higher than you note when Calzaghe beat him

1: Joe Calzaghe* (Britain), 26-0, WBO champ
2: Frankie Liles*, 32-1, WBA champ
3: Richie Woodhall (Britain), 25-1, WBC champ
4:

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(Britain), 27-1-1
Starie became
1: Joe Calzaghe* (GB), 34-0, WBO
2: Sven Ottke (Germany), 27-0, IBF
3: Eric Lucas (Canada), 35-4-3, WBC
4: Antwun Echols, 29-4-1
5: Robin Reid (GB), 32-3-1
6: Byron Mitchell, 25-1-1, WBA
7:

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(GB), 30-2
Sheika who you didnt note when Calzaghe beat him
1: Joe Calzaghe* (Britain), 28-0, WBO
2: Sven Ottke (Germany), 19-0, IBF
3: Glenn Catley (Britain), 26-3, WBC
4: Bruno Girard (France), 37-2-1, WBA
5: Byron Mitchell, 20-1-1
6: Markus Beyer (Germany), 18-1
7: Richie Woodhall (Britain), 26-2
8: James Butler, 16-1
9: Charles Brewer, 35-6
10:

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20-1
Woodhall - Beyer who beat Woodhall was KOd by Woodhall victim Catley
1: Joe Calzaghe* (Britain), 29-0, WBO
2: Sven Ottke (Germany), 20-0, IBF
3: Bruno Girard (France), 38-2-1, WBA
4: Byron Mitchell, 21-1-1
5:

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(Britain), 26-2
6: Dingaan Thobela (South Africa), 40-7-2, WBC
7: Glenn Catley (Britain), 26-4
8: Markus Beyer (Germany), 18-1
Veit when Calzaghe fought him a 2nd time
1: Joe Calzaghe* (GB), 38-0, WBO

2: Jeff Lacy, 19-0-0-1, IBF

3: Mikkel Kessler (Denmark), 35-0, WBA

4: Markus Beyer* (Germany), 32-2, WBC

5: Danny Green (Australia), 19-2

6: Mads Larsen* (Denmark), 45-2

7: Robin Reid (GB), 38-4-1, IBO

8: Anthony Mundine (Australia), 23-2

9:

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(Germany), 45-1

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you note who also wasnt coming off a loss

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you note, but you dont note how Mitchell was coming off a SD loss to Ottke which was very debateable.

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did enter into the ratings after his KO win of the undefeated European SMW champ 26-0 J Chanet
Ashira was rated at MW

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, Champion

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you note

Bika before he fought Calzaghe

1: Joe Calzaghe* (GB), 41-0, WBO/IBF

2: Mikkel Kessler (Denmark), 37-0, WBA

3: Markus Beyer* (Germany), 34-2-1, WBC

4: Jeff Lacy, 21-1-0-1

5: Anthony Mundine (Australia), 26-3

6: Librado Andrade, 24-0

7: Danny Green (Australia), 21-3

8: Allan Green, 22-0

9: Rudi Markussen (Denmark), 33-1

10:

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(Australia), 20-1-2
Manfredo wasnt coming off a loss and was world rated

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, Champion

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you note

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, Champion

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So if you work out how many fighters were top 10 rated and how many became top 10 rated after Calzaghe beat them he fought 22 SMW title fights and 15 were or became top 10 rated. I havent included Ferreyra who had been top 10 rated before fighting Calzaghe

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, Thats very good but even better when you note Calzaghes LHW career, because as a career total it becomes

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But you are still wrong because he fought

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fighters who were rated when he fought them. Reid, Sheika, Woodhall, Veit2, Brewer, Mitchell, Ashira, Manfredo, Lacy, Kessler, Jones, Hopkins, Bika. Eubank got rated for his loss so could be included to make

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Thanks for the link and excellent write ups Dave :good

People like to generalise when it comes to Calzaghe's career for some reason, and instead of looking in depth into a lot of the quality opposition he faced, they like to go with the stereotype and if they don't recognise a name, they immediately dismiss them as a fighter. Remember, top ranked contenders like Tate and Echols pulled out of fights with Joe. Hopkins signed up in 2002 and pulled out after having his own terms agreed to.

All in all, I can understand people criticising Calzaghe's record as that's part of the game, but I don't see how you can criticise his abilities as a fighter, he was complete and in my eyes a great fighter