Calzaghe, Jones and Hopkins

I do as well...

As much as I hate that Roy lost, I still like watching Griffin fall on his face in the first fight... I really think he could have got up but knew staying down got him out with a win... He even looked at the ref in disbelief for a second before he kissed the canvas..... Regardless, Roy was wrong and deserved to lose.

In the second fight I love it, because you can see no doubt that he just learned what it really feels like to not be able to get up.:yep

Unless he was knocked out in the amateurs of course, i am not too sure.

 

Knockout,

Hi mate, you've made some great points in your last few posts. This debate is really hotting up now, it's going to get really interesting.

The only thing I can add at the moment, is the timeline that you've mentioned.

You know that I always respect your opinion, even if I don't agree with it.

Now I know you believe that Joe did chase Roy for 5 or 6 years, and that's fair enough. But I don't, and in a previous post, I broke that timeline down, to show that in my opinion Joe was lying.

So if you don't mind, I'm going to go through it again, and see what the others think.

Joe couldn't have chased Roy from 2002-2008.

In 2002 Joe did express an interest in fighting Roy, and Roy considered it, but then Murad Muhammad got him his dream heavyweight fight. So Roy went upto heavy in what was obviously a bigger fight, that we've discussed numerous times.

So I'll give Joe a pass, and we can agree that he chased him in 2002.

In 2003 Roy was at heavy. He fought Ruiz in March, and spent the rest of the year trying to get Tyson in the ring. He kept his Ruiz weight on for a while, in the hope of the fight coming off. Meanwhile Tarver had been in his ear since he crashed the post fight Ruiz press conference. When it became clear that the Tyson fight wasn't happening, he agreed to come back down for Tarver.

So Joe did not chase Roy in 2003.

In 2004, Roy agreed to rematch Tarver after their close first fight in Nov 2003. We know what happened. Roy got knocked out. Then just three months later, in Sept 04, Roy fought Glen Johnson and was knocked out again.

Now we know that Joe didn't chase Roy in 2004.

Now if we jump two years to 2006, Joe said that after Roy had been knocked out twice, he didn't want anything to do with him, because he wasn't the same fighter, and a fight at that point would be pointless.

So because of what Joe said in 2006, we know that he didn't chase him, and he had no intentions of fighting him in 2005 or 2006. (even though FW supposedly put an offer to Roy, although I don't why he would have, considering what Joe had said.)

Joe's comments also rule out 2007.

In 2008, it was Roy that called out Joe, and Joe took the fight for a final payday.

So when Roy went upto heavy, Joe couldn't have chased him. Then when he first came back to 175, he wouldn't have had the opportunity to fight him (not that he chased him then anyway) then after Tarver and Johnson, he didn't want him anyway.

So out of those 6 years from 2002-2008, Joe only gets a pass from me for one year.

So he's either lying, or he's talking about the period from 1997-2002, that I don't believe for a second. He's always contradicted himself throughout his career, and I think his 5 to 6 year comment is complete BS.

Great debate though!

Regards. Loudon.

 

You Sir, make very good points, constructed with thought and with manners. I'd like to see you chime in on more topics than this one. :good

You too Knockout.

 

This is getting interesting, the timeline is the most contentious part and it's hard for anyone to say for sure.

Thanks, that means alot. Same to you too :good

I'm not entirely sure about the 6 years figure myself, though I think there's evidence that Joe wanted the fight, 6 years is difficult to prove.

I disagree with this point, Roy showed no interest in Joe, but Joe showed interest in Roy.

This all makes good sense to me.

In 2008, it was Roy that called out Joe, and Joe took the fight for a final payday.

It's hard to pin down when Joe was really looking to fight Roy. We can add 2001 in though, especially as that was around the time Joe called Jones and Hopkins out on the Tyson undercard. Also, Roy was contemplating back down to SMW.

I think in turn, Joe would have been willing to face Roy anytime in the 2004-2008 timeline, Roy hadn't looked good against Tarver and Johnson, but was still a huge name, and a huge payday. It's not just Joe who quotes 6 years, Frank ****** himself says that as well. So between the two of them, they must have a point

You too

 

Calzaghe didn't duck Jones, he just chose against pursuing him.

Hopkins did duck Calzaghe around 01/02, when an offer was turned down.

Nobody would ever accuse Jones of having ducked Calzaghe.

Pavlik was kept away from Calzaghe, a fight ****** would have wanted. Frank isn't a fool and could see what Calzaghe would have done to Pavlik.

 

we are referring to the past history of wbo, not the present. And a world famous body's belt always has more prestige than one from an unknown body, so you lost that point too, doesnt stop you raising it again and again, I notice.

And once again,please do not compare a multiweight winning ATG with Joe Calzaghe who only had one title, from a minor body that was unknown when he won it, for nearly ten years.

wrong tense, Bailey, dont try and fish your way out of this and Loudon's points. And you cant wait till we turn 40 either, come back soon!

 

If Joe only wanted easy fights then why did he agree to face prime Kessler?

 

Knockout,

Hi mate, great reply!

Roy didn't show interest in Joe, but in 2002 it was a possibility after Woods. In the post fight interview backstage, he mentions Joe, Tarver and admits that Murad is trying to negotiate with Ruiz. Now I don't believe that Roy at the time would have been willing to drop to 168, because he knew he was going up to heavy soon, whether it was against Ruiz or someone else. So unless it was for ridiculous money, I don't think he'd have been bothered. Also you've got to remember that back in 2002, Joe was still relatively unknown outside of europe, so that fight outside of Britain, wouldn't have been a huge fight. So I agree that Roy didn't really want Joe back then.

Yes we can add 2001 if you think he was genuine on the Tyson undercard. But we can't go back any further. Zod's links prove that in 1999 he turned down the opportunity of showcasing his talents live to a U.S. audience. Around the same time, he fought Rick Thornberry that was shown to the U.S. public, but he missed the chance to shine. There's no way he wanted Roy in the late 90's when he was fighting Reid etc. I don't believe he wanted him in 2000 either. So I'm willing to give him 2 years, but 5 or 6 is ridiculous.

You think that Joe was willing to fight Roy between 2004-2008, but Joe has admitted that after Tarver and Johnson had knocked him out, he wasn't interested in a fight at all. So really that rules out that 4 year period.

You're right about Frank making similar comments. But I have to take some of them comments with a pinch of salt, because at the time he promoted Joe, and he couldn't really say anything else. He had to hype Joe up, and he had to publicly back Joe's claims. He couldn't tell reporters that Joe wasn't interested in Roy.

After they split, certain things came to the surface, and at that point Frank had no reason to lie. He told everyone that he wanted Joe to go Stateside earlier than he did, and he told everyone about the Lacy incident, and also how Joe used to pull out of fights at a moments notice. He also said that Joe didn't believe in himself as much as he should have done. To my knowledge Joe has never disputed any of Frank's claims even though they fell out and went to court.

As I keep saying, if he tried to pull out of the Lacy fight at the last minute because of a psychological problem, then how could he have been genuine about meeting a near peak Roy? It doesn't make sense. I think Joe likes to pretend he was avoided because it protects his ego. Reading Zod's links brings me to the conclusion that, he knew deep down, that he wasn't good enough to beat Roy, and he didn't really truthfully want to fight him despite what he told the media, and that's my honest opinion, but again, I respect yours. He said he wanted the crown jewels, which was fair enough, I don't blame him, but he had to have been aware that nobody was going to give him them, because again, he wasn't a huge name outside of Britain back then. He and Frank must have known that if he ever got the opportunity to fight Roy back then, it wouldn't have been a huge payday for him, unless he'd have gone to the States first.

I think Joe knew full well that he wasn't going to get well paid, and he played on it, and used it as an excuse to his fans and the media. He was happy to tell everyone that if he'd have been really well paid, he'd have jumped at the chance to fight Roy, but they wouldn't, so he couldn't take the fight. It was a covenient excuse in my opinion, and again, I think he did it to protect his pride.

I think this has the potential to reach 30 pages ha!

Great debate mate!

Regards, Loudon.

 

There's a world of difference between prime Kessler and prime Roy. Kessler was/is a good fighter, but I wouldn't call him a great fighter, and coming into the unification fight with Joe, he hadn't beaten any great fighters.

No fights are easy, but obviously there's less risk fighting certain fighters.

Regards, Loudon.

 

Although Loudon and KO artist are having a gentlemanly debate while holding a firm handshake with no fire what so ever, realsoulja is here once again to add some fuel to the fire and help this thread reach a landmark 100 pages.

Here is Joe Calzaghe talking about a father-son moment with his son Conner just before his clash with the faded legend RJJ:-

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/boxing/9164514.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/boxing/7709126.stm

 

A pre Tarver Jones would have easily beaten Calzaghe.

 

Hi mate, thanks!

Ha! I know I've got to debate other topics, but Roy's my boy, and I can't help myself getting drawn in.

Don't forget to check out Mike McCallum when you've got some spare time mate. I know you're always busy though.

I always look forward to your posts on here.

Regards, Loudon.

 

Read what I was answering to.

If you read it all and open it up, it goes on with Calzaghe agreeing to fight Jones. It was to be after the Woodhall fight.
Read it for yourself and stop ducking

 

How was Calzaghe refusing to fight in America, when he agreed to fight Hopkins in America, forget that .

Calzaghe had badly damaged hands and had to pull out of several fights. He pulled out against Sheika 3 times and against Jones just before the did fight and look how he beat them

 

How many more do you need. You are obviously not reading them all.
Jones said he was going to go back to SMW, read the links I posted. Roys words