Calzaghe, Jones and Hopkins

Lacy was built up, whilst many were saying Joe was finished. Lacy was a big puncher and there's always fear before stepping into the ring, you might be reading too much into this. I don't know if you're trying to make out that Joe was scared? but he destroyed Lacy, I didn't see a scared man that night.

I guess my opinion is otherwise, so we'll have to agree to disagree there.

You say he refused to fight in America for years, fair point as he didn't. But why would he fight abroad for less money and give up his hard earned title. Joe was willing to fight in America, but he was looking for the big fights, read this:

[url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/boxing/3030004.stm[/url]

A quote from Joe himself. Bear in mind that at this time Jones was up at HW.

If it's worth huge money, it's a huge fight.

Fair enough mate, you have your opinions and I respect that. But I have to disagree, I don't really see how that's selling the fight? Things like 'I'll knock him in the 5th round' sells a fight, but that doesn't. Once again, I've provided a quote from Roy himself, and that's good enough for me.

I completely agree, he hasn't tarnished his legacy because it doesn't detract from what he did accomplish. Even if he did retire after Ruiz, I couldn't consider him one of the top 20 fighters ever, though he is one of the greats for sure. He didn't make enough big fights in his prime. After Toney, it took him 9 years until Ruiz to make another big fight, although I appreciate he did also beat some very good fighters in that time and was dominant. But you know the kind of big fight I'm talking about, like when he faced Toney, or other big fights like DLH-Trinidad.

I agree that he's done, hopefully he doesn't get hurt and retires with his health intact.

 

Another response! Thanks for taking the time to type this up, I appreciate it.

I agree, nobody knows what the crown jewels quote means, that's why it's a bit monotonous that people keep quoting it.

By the way, do you have a link about the $5m offer made to Darius, I've not seen that before? It's interesting to say the least.

Roy's finest moment was at 168, and he wasn't a huge LHW.

To be fair, Joe's best performances were at 168, when he did move up to 175, did he look particularly impressive to you?

Fair enough, but it doesn't mean Joe didn't want the fight.

To be fair, I'm just going off figures. If Hopkins was offered a career high payday to fight Joe, then he must have been worth plenty of money.

That's all fair enough, I'm can't argue with this.

This is all fair enough, I agree with you that it's not a duck. But the whole point of this thread was for G Zod to try and bait, and the point of it is wrong, Joe did want the fight, though I don't blame Roy for not taking it as you've outlined in excellent detail, he had bigger things on the horizon.

Look at how Woods did at 168, compared to how he did at 175. Take out Jones, and the 168 division is clearly better.

I think Joe gets insecure when people criticise him, so he's trying to point out that the big name Americans didn't want to face him. As you've stated, he was high risk low reward to Roy, so he's got a point.

That original quote is from 1999, things can change, though I agree with you that he is probably wrong about the timeline.

This reminds me of the quote from SRL, where he states he wanted to fight Hagler when he saw that Marvin had slowed down against Mugabi. Years later people say Ray just waited for Marvin to get old, and that he ducked him. This obviously annoyed Ray, and he's defended himself against this comment numerous times. Perhaps people took it out of context?

It wasn't just him who stated it, Frank ****** did as well. Roy also admitted Joe wanted to fight him for 'the longest time'. I think you're harsh on trying to discredit Joe, this thread seems to have lost perspective of what Zod originally asked, and you agree that Joe may well have wanted to fight him around the time of 2001-2003, so that immediately means you agree Zod's original point was wrong, regardless of the debate about timelines (6 years or whatever).

You too mate, hope you've had a weekend. It's hard keeping up with you! Your posts always make for excellent reading. You should consider writing for the ESB main website or another site! You have a great knowledge of the sport

 

And wtf are you outside being the gay little cheerleader for the losing squad. All you do is post the same respetitive crap to your boyfriends . Yeah your posts are worthwhile Keep dreaming u drama queen dick rider !

 

Wat w8 was Bhop @ wen said quote was made?



Roy probably didn't have enough "big fights" but he sure had many more then joe and I think fighters like montell don't get the credit they deserve.

 

oh dear, i appear to have touched a raw nerve with my deliciously accurate analysis :rofl:rofl:rofl

 

hey whopperdong, i just noticed that you got a vcash total of 75, what happenned?

 

Sure you did Headgiver ,sure you did ..

 

unlike joe I put it all on the line.

 

I genuinely thought it was a misprint when i first saw it, so i have since had an independent adjudicatior double check and confirm it

in what fight did you put it all on the line whopperdong? :rofl

 

To b honest I can't remember was a massive underdog and in hindsight probably not the best bet to make..... I felt lucky.

 

MW? But he bear in mind he was a huge MW, who started his career at LHW and boiled down to enjoy a size advantage over his opponents. At the time Hopkins was thinking of moving up to SMW to face Byron Mitchell, and after Joe KO'd Mitchell the natural fight would have been Calzaghe-Hopkins. I think Hopkins knew Calzaghe was a nightmare with his speed, work-rate and fast two handed offence, that's why he turned down huge offers to face Joe.

Fair enough he did have more big fights than Joe, but I wasn't comparing him to Joe in that particular point. I was talking about where Roy would rank all time, and that means comparing him to the likes of Ali, Leonard, Hearns, Robinson and the other greats. Though as I said, Roy is definitely one of the greats.

Montell Griffin was a good fighter, but he only won a world title because of a DQ win against Jones, in a fight many felt Jones was on course to winning anyway. After that, Griffin didn't really do much else after getting KO'd in the rematch. I don't see how Griffin is a better win than e.g. Robin Reid?

 

Knockout,

Hi mate! Fantastic response, that was a pleasure to read.

The whole Lacy build up was very strange to me. I think the fact that Joe was an underdog, tells you how he was perceived at the time to the U.S. public. I'm certain that if the U.S. fans and media had have seen Joe as many times as us, they would have known how great he was, and they would never have made him an underdog. Everyone got caught up in the Lacy hype. He was knocking everyone out with his left hook, and people thought he was facing a decentish european fighter, with decent skills. Joe certainly gave them a rude awakening. But like I say, I think he was the favourite, due to ignorance, and them not knowing much about Joe. Now if Joe had have gone to the States in the late 90's and put in a performance like that, who knows what would have happened? If you look at all of Joe's interviews over the years, he was so calm and confident, and you could even say he was arrogant. So I can't believe that Frank had problems getting him out for the fight. It doesn't make sense does it? But listening to Joe over the years, you would have also have thought that he'd have been tormenting Frank to go to America. But then Frank says he refused to go. So I don't know what was going through his mind. I used to watch Joe as a kid, thinking how cool and laid back he was. So it's a mystery to me.

Joe was in a catch 22 situation like DM was. He was proud of his WBO belt and didn't want to give it up. He wanted to unify the division, which was fair enough. But if he'd have wanted Roy bad enough, he had a hard decision to make like DM. Did he carry on doing what he was doing? Or did he give up his title, and move up in weight, and fight in the U.S. to try and get a shot at Roy? He had to pick one or the other. If he stayed the champ at 168 and stayed in Europe, he virtually had no chance of fighting Roy. So he either needed to completely go for it, or he just needed to forget about Roy.

He could never have expected Roy to come down in weight. I know Roy said in 2001/2002 that he'd consider coming down, but that's all it was, and nothing more. You keep asking the question, why would he have given his title up and fought abroad for less money? But the answer is, he had no choice if he was serious about fighting Roy. If you wanted Roy in 2002, you had to go to him, and give in to his demands, whatever they were. He was never going to approach Joe for a fight. But Joe didn't want to make that hard choice that he was faced with.

Joe says that he'd have been willing to go to America, but only for a big fight. But the problem is, he was in no position to do that. He had to go and lay down some groundwork first. Because again nobody knew much about him at the time. He had to have been prepared to have at least 2 or 3 fights over there before he had a realistic chance of getting Roy or Hop for good money. Ricky Hatton went over and had a few fights before he called out Floyd. If he hadn't have gone over and fought Castillo etc, I don't think he'd have got the fight with Floyd. Again, a Hopkins vs Calzaghe fight in 2002, wouldn't have made huge money. Joe only became respected over there after he'd smashed up Lacy. In 2002 he was a no name.

I respect your opinion on what Roy said in 2008. But there was no need for any bad blood to hype the fight at that point. They hyped the fight by being respectful and civil, and by saying, "we somehow missed each other through the years, but now you've got the chance to finally see us fight, so don't miss it." That was the message they were trying to send out to the fans.

We'll never agree about Roy missing big fights. Ha! I think the only big fight he missed was DM, but it became impossible to make. But I stand my original post on the subject, which is, he was unlucky to fight in the era that he did, and he didn't have a rival like Frazier to Ali, or Duran to Leonard. If he'd have bashed up Benn, Eubank and Collins etc, he still wouldn't be ranked much higher than he his at present. He'd never be up there with the fab Four. James Toney was Roy's Frazier, Hagler, La Motta etc. I also stand by my point that Toney (at the time) and Hopkins, were better than all the fighters he missed.

I think he had big fights, but because he was so dominant, they didn't look like big fights. He toyed with good fighters like Reggie Johnson. But then people say, "yeah but Reggie had lost 4 or 5 times". Then the same people say he ducked Collins. Benn posed a threat because of his style, but Benn had been beaten by Eubank and Watson, and he'd struggled with Malinga the first time. As I've said before, if Roy had've beaten Benn, people would have said, "so what? he'd been beaten before". There's people on here that absolutely slate him for not fighting Collins. But if he'd have fought him and beaten him, what would have happened? If I came on here and said "He beat Collins easy and that was a great win" you know that people would say. They'd say "Collins was rubbish, and he lost to Reggie etc." I know for a fact that that's what would happen.

He beat some very good fighters with ease, that had done good things before he beat them, and a lot of them went on to do good things afterwards. But it gets overlooked by hatred, and I don't understand it? Roy is the most underated fighter on this forum. I think people forget just how special he was. As I've said, I watched the super six, and I really enjoyed it. Then afterwards, I thought to myself, my god, none of these guys could have beaten Roy at 168. It really put things into perspective for me. People watch him now, and they forget how special he was, or they never saw him at his peak. If we'd just seen Floyd at the weekend, Knock someone out after putting both of his hands behind his back for 5 seconds (no matter what level his opponent was at) this site would go into meltdown!

I'm dreading his fight in Nov mate to be honest. I really don't want to see it.

 

Hi mate,

That was another great reply, this is what the forum should be about.

Nobody knows what the crown Jewels were, so we'll leave it there. But again, you'd have to assume it was for big money. Also it was a huge obstacle that was in the way, because at the time, Joe wouldn't or couldn't have expected much more than Roy's other opponents. I know that would have been frustrating for Joe, because as we keep saying, Joe was much better than most of Roy's opponents at the time. We knew that, Joe knew that, and all of Joe's fans knew that. But the point is, the U.S. fans didn't, so he had to prove to them how good he was. But again, he wasn't prepared to do the groundwork, so it was a vicious circle that he found himself in.

The only link I've got to hand regarding DM, comes from Roy himself. I'd have to do some digging, if you wanted someone else's opinion? Last month Roy explained to a Polish journalist why the fight with DM didn't come off in 2001. It was an interview leading up to his fight with Glacewski.

No, Joe didn't look particularly impressive when he moved up to 175, but he only had the two fights. But I know that he had better training camps for Hopkins and Roy. He ate a lot better, and he didn't have to work as hard to lose the weight. You've got to remember that although Joe moved up a weight division, it actuallly meant, that he didn't have to lose as much weight. He says himself that he felt stronger at 175, mainly because he hadn't starved himself.

When Roy's shortlist that included Joe in 2002 had Tarver and Ruiz in it, Joe must have realized that he didn't have a realistic chance of getting the fight?

I don't see how Hopkins in 2002 could have been offered a career high pay day? But I don't think that Bernard had any real intentions of fighting at 168 at the time, unless it was at a catchweight for a rematch with Roy.

In 2002, Roy certainly had bigger fish to fry. But what about the other 4/5 years that he claimed to have chased him? We've established it wasn't from 2003-2008, so Joe's telling porkies.

The 168 division and 175 division had cross over periods in my opinion. In the early to mid 90's, I think the 168 division was great! You'd got Eubank, Collins, Benn, Toney, Roy, and Gerald etc. Then when Roy and Toney had moved up and the others had retired, I personally think it was very weak, until the last year or so of Joe's reign, and the start of the super six. I think from 1996/97 til 2006 ish, it was very weak. I'm not saying the fighters weren't good fighters, that would be disrespectful. But all of the great fighters that I've just mentioned, were replaced by the likes of Ottke, Reid, Brewer, Veit and Woodhall etc.

The 175 divison in the late 90's was also good. It had Roy, Toney, Reggie, Hill, Griffin, DM etc. then later on it had Gonzalez, Harding, Glen Johnson, Tarver and then Hopkins etc. I think it was a strong division from 96/97 til around 2005/2006, then I think the 168 division started to come alive a little. Zod calls the 168 division in the late 90's/early 2000's a barren wasteland, and I agree completely. I actually feel a little sorry for Joe. If he'd been around earlier, he could have fought Benn etc, and If he was at his peak now, he'd have been in the Super six. But I think Joe was at his peak, when the division was at it's weakest. That's why I think he should have ditched his belt (especially when it became apparent that Ottke didn't want to unify) and moved up to 175 in the late 90's when he was around 27/28. I think after having a few low key fights, for low money, he'd have gained global recognition and landed himself a really big fight at some point. That is my honest opinion. The opportunity was certainly there for him. If he'd have gone over when Lou De Bella had opened the door for him, I think he could have been a huge star.

I don't think that Joe was high risk, low reward to Roy, I honestly don't think Roy gave Joe much thought when he was on top. Again when he said, he may fight Joe, and he may come down in weight, it was just one of three or four options that he had at the time.

We'll have to agree to disagree about Joe wanting to fight Roy. I think he made enquiries between 2001-2003, but certainly not before or after those two years. But again, how serious was he, when he wouldn't go and fight in America at 175? So I respect your opinion, but for me he wasn't as serious as what he liked people to think. The money he wanted was a stumbling block, and he had to go to Roy. Roy wasn't going to come to him. For me, he never seemed to back up his words with actions. He told the world he wanted Roy after the Tyson fight, but he did nothing about it after the dust had settled. He continued to fight decent but not great fighters in Britain at 168, and (despite how great some of his performances were) that was never going to get him a Roy Jones fight.

Thanks for the compliment mate regarding writing for the site, that's much appreciated. But there's a good few posters on here, that I'm sure could also write articles, who have far greater knowledge than myself. I don't know if you're aware, but SJS19 used to write articles for a boxing website. I hope he doesn't mind me sharing that information, if others aren't aware? But he's a very intelligent guy, that always contributes with quality posts, as do other posters, including Zod and yourself. You too have a great knowledge of the sport, and it's been an absolute pleasure debating with you, so many thanks!

I know you're busy mate, so just reply whenever you've got the opportunity.

Regards, Loudon.

 

Failey you should choke on a dick, you dirty council estate slag!