Calzaghe, Jones and Hopkins

Pre fight nerves are natural, and Lacy did have some good wins under his name, he was a very good fighter and Joe ruined him. When people point out the premature stoppages against Joe, what they ignore is that look at what happened to Lacy, the ref should have pulled him out earlier. That fight went the whole 12 rounds, and instead of getting battered for 7-8 rounds, Lacy took the whole punishment over 12 rounds, if his corner pulled him out earlier, his career could have been different.

Fights in Britain are stopped earlier for a reason, I hate to point out the more grim examples, but there is too much at stake to allow a fighter to get beaten up for the sake of pride.

Good points here, you did have to give in to Roy's demands and go to Roy. I've pointed out before, that Joe was willing to go to America to face Hopkins, so why wouldn't he have if a fight with Jones could have been made?

[url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/boxing/3435503.stm[/url]

the big name Americans may have been reluctant to face Joe. But Joe is under no illusions that he'd have to travel to America

My issue with what you said, is when you said Joe could not have expected Roy to go down, Roy wasn't serious when he said that. How could you know that? Those were Roy's own words, if he said it then Joe had a reasonable expectation in my opinion.

Once again, why would Roy lie? That doesn't make any sense to me. Furthermore, I don't see how it's hyping a fight? I posted up a video that in my opinion puts this thread to rest, though it has been a good discussion.

James Toney got beaten by ordinary fighters in his prime, but it doesn't detract from Roy does it? Before facing Roy, James Toney got a gift decision over Dave Tiberi, and had drawn to Sanderline Williams (who Herol Graham beat with ease), but it doesn't take away from Roy's accomplishment?

I wouldn't say Roy is underrated at all, there's a thread titled 'Roy is the greatest ever on the front page

Putting your hands behind your back and scoring a KD is amusing, but Floyd's KO of Ricky Hatton was pretty awesome as well!

Agreed on the fight in Nov, that shouldn't be allowed.

 

What about Steve Collins? Who put in all the ground work and then some, Roy still wouldn't fight him. Other guys like Benn and Liles were all well known in the US, and the fights didn't get made with Roy despite these guys calling him out. High risk, with no guarantee that you'd get a fight with Roy.

Tarver made his way into Roy's mandatory, and Roy wrote a letter to the IBF asking them to put him through an eliminator with Harding, a fight Tarver didn't want and shouldn't have been forced into. As a result, he lost. Before Tarver fought Griffin in 2003, did you know Roy actually contacted Griffin and said if he beat Tarver he'd promise him a rubber match? It was hard to force a fight with Roy in that time!

I was wondering where the $5m offer to face Roy in America came from? joe.boxer posted a link from DM's promoter the other day that stated Darius never received a single offer to fight Roy, and Roy's camp wouldn't negotiate with them properly.

Often when a fighter moves up in weight, they slack off because they know they don't have to get their weight down, look at James Toney for example. Here's a quote from Roy regarding his training camp for the Jones fight,

He called out Byron Mitchell the SMW champion as well, before he lost to Ottke. Hopkins was a huge MW who boiled down to enjoy a big size advantage over his opponents, remember many of his earlier bouts were at 175 or above 160.

The figures come from Jay Larkin of Showtime, so I'll take his word for it. The networks knew Joe was a top fighter, that's why Hopkins was offered so much to face him, they knew that was a fight they could really market.

I agree that the timeline isn't consistent at all

Look at Glen Johnson and Clinton Woods, they didn't accomplish much at 168, but when they moved up to 175 they were world class and won world titles. That's a good indication to me. Toney was poor at LHW, suffered losses to Griffin (x2) and Drake Thadzi at that weight, and didn't win a title. I don't think there's too much difference between Reggie, Hill, Griffin and DM to the SMW's that you listed. The standout fighter in that division was Roy Jones, without him would many have been interested in the LHW division at that time?

I don't think there's a huge difference between the SMW division of then, and at the time of the super six. Are guys like G.Johnson, Allen Green, Bika and Dirrell really better than Reid, Brewer, Mitchell, Echols and Beyer? There's not much between them. Calzaghe and Ottke were standout fighters and Calzaghe certainly beats Ward, Kessler and Froch. Ottke isn't an easy opponent for any of Kessler, Froch or Ward.

How could having low key fights give you global recognition?

I respect your opinion, but I don't how beating a few low key American LHW's in the States would force a fight with Roy? Though I agree that Joe can't state that Roy ducked him, Joe didn't go to the lengths that Steve Collins or Tarver did to force a fight with Roy, and they had every right to be frustrated. But Roy confirmed that Joe wanted to face him for a long time, and that pretty much finishes this thread, with in my opinion a fair conclusion. Joe could have done more to force a fight with Roy, and he can't feel too aggrieved that he didn't get that fight, but also Zod failed with the purpose of this thread, in that we have proof that Joe did want the fight.

You're welcome mate, you should think about it, it would be good fun. SJS is a quality poster, that doesn't surprise me at all, does he mind me asking what site did he write for?

I think this will be my last significant post on this thread. Thanks for taking the time to type up the responses, it's all much appreciated and I always enjoy debating with you.

 

Not sure where this thread is currently at but it always makes me laugh when I think about how Enzo and Joe replied to Hopkins request for a rematch "we don't do rematches" they sure didn't do rematches.....unless your name was Mario Veit and you had been KO'd in one round in the last fight you had

 

Hi pal, great reply, thanks a lot!

Pre fight nerves are certainly natural, but Joe was on the verge of pulling out. Like I say, he's always come across to me as been supremely confident, so that's a huge surprise.

I think the ref should definitely have stopped the fight, but I think his corner have a lot to answer for. I think Lacy had some decent wins, but not great ones. I think Joe ruined him to a certain degree, but I think he'd have been equally exposed if he'd have fought another elite level boxer like Joe. But that was a great win, and Joe deserves a lot of credit. It was an amazing performance.

I've got a good question for you, if you don't mind.

What do you think would have happened if the pre Calzaghe version of Lacy had entered the super six? I was thinking about it the other day. I know he lost to Taylor, but do think it would have been a different outcome if Joe hadn't have fought him? Who else do you think would have beaten him, how far do think he'd have got etc?

As I've said before regarding Joe's willingness to go to America, if he'd have been that willing, he'd have gone anyway. A fight with Jones could never have realistically being made, unless Joe had have taken whatever what was on offer. But he wouldn't. He wanted to be well paid. If you agree that he was well within his rights to be well paid, then that's fair enough. But that was one of several things from stopping the fight from taking place. If they'd approached Roy in 2000 or 2001 before he went to heavy, I still don't think the fight had have come off.

Like I said the other day, I don't think Joe was willing to do the groundwork, and he was in a vicious circle. He was willing to go to America, but only for the big fights. But because nobody had seen much of him, he was never going to get paid well for his efforts. So the fights never got made, because Joe wanted to be well paid. He needed to go over and have two or three fights against literally anybody he could, and then take things from there. But I don't think he had the motivation to go over and fight a few low key fights first. He knew how good he was, and he only wanted the big fights, but again HBO etc wouldn't have paid him well, so he was back in the circle again.

He had to make sacrifices and look at the bigger picture. It was all there for him, but he was reluctant. He was also unrealistic. When nobody in the States knows who you are, you can't just get on a plane and fight one of the worlds best fighters, and expect to get millions of dollars. Common sense tells you that. But he was too reluctant to give up his WBO belt up. Like I've said previously, he was proud of that belt, and he didn't want to give it up, and that was fair enough. But he couldn't have it both ways. His options were, keep the belt and forget about the big fights in America, or ditch the belt, and go for it. There was no middle ground, it had to be one or the other, and he could never choose.

I know for a fact that Roy wasn't serious when he said he may go down. It was just a consideration and nothing more. In 2002 he'd finally given up on a DM fight, and his options were, Ruiz, Tarver, possibly a rematch with Hopkins (if Hop would accept 40%) and then Joe. He had nothing to gain by fighting Joe. He wasn't interested in his title, and he was hoping Murad was going to get him the Ruiz fight. As soon as Murad gave him the green light, he didn't think about any of his other options. All Joe was to Roy in 2002, was a possibility, and nothing more. But If Joe seriously wanted Roy, he'd have moved up to Roy's weight at some point.

Regarding Roy's comments in 2008, it's not a lie as such, he just went along with what Joe said that's all. They didn't need to hype the fight by trading insults etc. It was all done in a respectful manner. Roy had asked Joe for the fight, and Joe agreed. They spoke about having one fight in America and one fight in Britain. Joe was calling Roy a legend and there was no animosity. There was no need to for Roy to question any of Joe's comments like certain reporters did. Roy was never going to say something like "I don't believe he really chased me because...." They sold the fight by telling the public "After all these years, we're finally getting it on" If Roy had've seen Zod's video of Joe on Setanta, the atmosphere might have been different ha!

Roy gets huge credit for beating Toney in the manner in which he did. Yes James had close fights, and he even admitted that he'd lost to Tiberi, but Roy was the underdog. James was 26 years old and was considered one of the best fighters in the world. But the point I was making, was that James was Roy's Ali type rival at the time. Because they were both undefeated and nearly the same age. There were good opponents out there for Roy to fight, and some of them he fought, and some of them he missed, but he didn't have another rival out there. The nearest rival Roy's ever had was Antonio Tarver. But by then they were both 35. If things had have turned out different for Tarver, and he'd have turned pro at 20 odd, instead of 28, then he probably would have been built up as Roy's rival.

But I think Roy gets treated harsh in the rankings, because he never had one. But that's not his fault. I'm not sure if I mentioned this to you on a previous thread, but either Jeff Powell or Colin Hart, and I honestly can't recall which one it was, but one of them criticised Roy for never being involved in a trilogy. It was absolutely bizarre. (This was said in 2000, before Tarver.)

Of course Floyd's Knockout was better, and obviously Ricky was a far better opponent than what Glen Kelly was. But my point was, whenever Roy did something like that, it was always "He's just a great athlete that's all" But I know for a fact that if Floyd or Manny did something like that, this forum would shut down. People would be going crazy! I spoke to a friend the other day about Roy's knockout of Vinny Paz. I said to him, "That knockout was awesome, the way Roy had to position his feet moving forward etc, he threw a 6 punch combo that included 3 uppercuts, off of each hand. It was truly amazing!" He turned around and said "Yeah but it was only Pazienza" If Floyd had have done that to anybody, I guarantee people would be going crazy over it!

The guy who drew with Tarver, Lateef Kayode, is talking about facing Roy at some point in the future. I don't know much about him, but I'm sure he could beat Roy at this stage.

Great debate!

Regards, Loudon.

 

Steve Collins gets my respect for chasing Roy, and it's a good point, but the circumstances are entirely different. Steve had been retired, he was coming towards the end of his career, and there was no public demand for the fight. Roy swerved him to instead fight Reggie in a unification. Joe on the other hand, was just starting out, and he was an exciting fighter.

If Joe had've impressed at 175 in America, they could have been a huge call for that fight at some point, and then who knows what would have happened? I think if he'd have put in a Lacy type performance early on, and he'd have been brought along in the right way, they could have built the fight up over a period of time. He could even have become Roy's mandotary.

I honestly think that Roy did that to Tarver to annoy him and get under his skin. They'd been trading insults for years before. Roy said Tarver should have been embarrassed fighting in the Olympics at 27 etc. If you think Roy forced him into the elimination to avoid him, then that's fair enough. But at the end of the day, if Tarver had've won, Roy would had to have fought him. But he lost and Roy fought Harding. But then three years later, Roy ended up fighting him anyway. So if he'd have really not wanted to have fought him, he wouldn't have done.

It was HBO that would of payed to bring DM to the States. I'll have a look into it in more detail.

You can't compare Toney's weight issues to Joe's. They're completely different. James had a serious problem and used to gorge himself in between fights. Joe had an easier life making 175, because he ate better, and he felt stronger because he wasn't as drained.

The networks certainly knew that Joe was a good fighter, but the problem they had, was showcasing him to the general public.

Glen didn't do a lot at 168, but he chased the big name fighters and it was easier to make weight. Woods was also better at 175, because of the weight. Yes, I definitely think that Ward, Kessler, Froch and Dirrell are better than Reid etc.

If Joe had've had low key fights to build his name up in America, it could have led to bigger things if he'd have impressed. It's as simple as that really. I don't think we have proof mate, that Joe really wanted the big fights. Because if he'd have really wanted them, he'd have done a lot more than he did. He'd have gone to America when De Bella had the door open for him to go, he'd have moved up to Roy's weight class much sooner than he did. Also, he'd have lowered his demands, and took whatever would have been on the table. If he'd have been serious, he'd have done all of those things.

Actions speak louder than words. The only proof we have is that Joe said he wanted the big fights. But what he didn't do, far outweighs what he said. His reluctance to go to America killed off the chance of a big fight happening. The crown jewels that he wanted were unrealistic, and killed the chance of the fight taking place. Also, they were at different weights, and he was unknown in America, so outside of Britain there was no demand for the fight.

So I really don't see how serious he was, if he wasn't willing to do any of the above? He wanted to keep his WBO belt, he wanted Roy to come to his division, and he wanted a **** load of money. None of that was going to happen. Zod's got links of him saying that he didn't want Roy and he didn't want tough fights, then we've got links of him saying that he knew what his capabilities were etc etc.

All of those things that he didn't do, and the obstacles that he put up, tell me that he wasn't at all serious about fighting Roy. I have a huge amount of respect for you mate, and your opinions, but I fail to see how you can make a case for his defence. We should take this to court ha! Him saying that he wanted Roy, but not backing up his words with actual actions doesn't prove anything. Like I keep saying to Bailey, don't look at what he said, look at what he did.

He was always thinking about moving up, but he never actually made the jump. I saw this earlier today from 2004.

[url]http://youtu.be/8KsIAKnvJBQ[/url]

He talks about moving up in 2004, but he didn't go for another 4 years. What was he waiting for? Zod has also posted links up, of him saying that he was more than willing to go up to 175. But again, he never followed any of it through. The guy was a fantastic fighter, but he was always reluctant. His ambition didn't match his skills. Clinton Woods wasn't half the fighter that Joe was, but he proved that you could go to America and get the big fights.

SJS19 is an intelligent guy. I can't remember who he used to write for, you'll have to ask him mate. I'm sure he won't mind telling you. You can't leave the thread mate ha! This will run for a while yet. I'm sure Bailey will make another appearance and throw everything up in the air ha! It's been a pleasure debating with you Knockout. I love our debates.

Regards, Loudon.

 

Hi mate, thanks for the superb responses, I enjoyed reading them, as I'm pretty much done with this thread, I'll conclude things now as fair as I can.

I agree with this, and Joe didn't help, he should have gone to America years later and even he admits this.

In response though, he was still worth money and Hopkins was offered £3m to face him in Vegas, that's quite a far amount.

In the court transcript between Hopkins and Don King, in pointing out how awkward Bernard was, Don King stated

[url]http://www.fighthype.com/community/index.php?showtopic=22029[/url]

Don King states that Calzaghe would have brought good ratings

I wouldn't say Joe's actions killed off any chance of the fight, but they certainly didn't improve them. Frank ****** in the No Average Joe documentary states that Jones and Hopkins both turned down offers to face Calzaghe, now I can't find anything else on Jones, but the quote from Jay Larkin proves that Calzaghe was willing to go to America for that fight in particular. I hope that helps.

Though as I've stated before, Joe can't feel too aggrieved for not getting the Jones fight, and the 6-7 years timeline isn't really consistent as you've pointed out.

To be fair, I don't really know what happened in any negotiations, but in fairness, Jones was contemplating moving down to 168, also, Jones was a draw, anyone who faced him did so for big $$$.

And I've got a video of Roy himself saying Joe's wanted to fight him for a long time. It's a bit unfair to just dismiss it and say it was promoting the fight, then go back to a quote from 1999?

It depends on how you perceive things. I wouldn't say he chased Roy, but I wouldn't say he avoided Roy, I wouldn't say Roy avoided Joe either. I just don't think the fight was ever meant to happen, their careers and periods of dominance didn't clash. By the time Calzaghe became a viable opponent, Jones was up at HW, and the rest is history.

Moving up in 2004 would have been a poor decision, as he would have missed out on defining fights against Lacy and Kessler.

You too mate, once again I've enjoyed it. If bailey makes a return, this thread will be destined for another 25 pages :good

It's a shame General Zod doesn't take your gentleman like approach, because he's obviously quite intelligent, but prefers resorting to mudslinging rather than debating things.

I've pretty much said everything I've got to, and tried to conclude things fairly in this post, hope this helps.

 

I've just been reading through some of that court transcript, and came across this

Ickels is referring to Antwun Echols.

[url]http://www.fighthype.com/community/i...howtopic=22029[/url]


Here is the link if you want to have a read for yourself, very interesting stuff about the business side of things

As I stated above, the fight wasn't meant to happen, and as Roy said in the video I posted, there were too many obstacles in the way.

I hope this clears things up

 

You are missing the main thing here, RS.

JC butt****ed the whole boxing industry.

Thats the magic of Joeeeeee Calzaghe.