Calzaghe vs RJJ's resume

And this whole thing about ducking fighters. I don't think RJJ ducked any fighter, nor do I think Calzaghe ducked fighters.

But I will say this... RJJ and G-Man were supposed to fight, had G-Man got pass Benn. I believe that. They were on a collision course for sure. If G-Man won that fight, the demand for that fight wouldve been HUGE and lots of money to be made. But we all know what happened with that.

Really the only fights I question as far as Jones not fighting them is Nunn and Collins. Eubanks only wanted the fight when he had already lost everything and was on a big decline, but when he was prime he didn't want the fight, because the risk didn't match the reward, as he wanted more. Most of these fights didn't happen because the reward wasn't big enough. They would get paid their biggest purse, but given the risk that fighting Jones was, it wasn't worth that type of money. They were right, they should've got more, in some instances. Offered more, that is.

Rjj is not the only reason why fights didn't happen... no one fighter is at fault, these things can be complicated.

 

Calzaghe's claim to fame at LHW came against two 40+ year olds who both sat him on his ass. against a legit lightheavy like pascal, dawson, or tarver, he wouldn't have lasted 12.

 

Knockout,

Hi there, you've made a few good points in your posts, we've been through most of them before. But why do you keep saying that Joe chased a fight with Roy?

It's ridiculous!

He didn't do anything to chase a fight with Roy.

There was a slight chance of it happening after Roy beat Clinton, but as soon as Roy found out out there was a chance to fight for the Heavyweight Title, he forgot that Joe existed.

But at that point in 2002, Joe was a nobody outside of the U.K.

Boxing fans in the U.S. had only seen live footage of him once previously. His fight with Rick Thornberry was shown in 1999, but it wasn't one of Joe's best performances, and he failed to shine.

But Joe never chased Roy for a fight.

He never fought in Roy's Country.

He never fought in Roy's weight class (despite having a hard time making 168, especially as he got older)

He never publicly called out Roy in post fight interviews etc.

He was happy signing contract extensions with Frank, and defending his belt at home.

As I said previously, I've got a huge amount of respect for any professional fighter, and I've no problem with what Joe did. However, you can't have it both ways. If you're going to stay at home with Frank, fighting the Veits of this world, that's fine, but don't start telling people, you want to fight the big boys, but they won't fight you.

I'm sick of hearing the excuse, "Well Joe wanted Roy, but he wasn't a big name"!

Why wasn't he a big name? Because he stayed in the U.K. with Frank.

He was scared of flying apparently, but in 2008 when Roy was nearly 40,he overcame his fear.

Joe could have gone to the States late 90's early 00's and fought on a few undercards. He could even have had a few fights at 175. A good fighter like Joe, with an Italian herritage would have been big news in somewhere like New York. He was a good looking lad, with great skills and fast hands. I think it's safe to assume that he could have built up a huge fan base, and he'd have become very well known.

A that point, he could have been marketed, and they could have been huge interest in a fight with Roy, especially if Joe had've looked exciting and called him out etc.

But the truth is, he was happy doing what he was doing.

Clinton Woods managed to fight Roy, Tarver and Johnson three times.

Joe claims, he'd have loved those fights but he couldn't get any of them.

I think one of the saddest things I've seen in boxing, is when Joe fought Peter Manfredo to gain U.S. exposure. That was just an insult to Joe. But at the time, Frank deemed it necessary.

Joe was a great fighter, and I think he's underrated. But don't be fooled into thinking that he was desperate For a Roy Jones fight, but he couldn't get one. It's nonsense!

regards, Loudon.

 

Of course BHop will employ the dark arts, and look to spoil, as you say hanging on the outside, then exploding inside and attacking Dawson in bursts. Unfortunately, if Dawson's the aggressor, is throwing more punches and outworking BHop, I feel that at 47 years it's gonna be hard for him to win a decision.

As we saw in the first fight, Hopkins was hanging on the outside, and looking for an opening to throw a lead right hand, Dawson will be prepared for this, keeping his left hand up high will help. Ultimately, if Dawson's pressing the action, throwing plenty of jabs and cuts the ring off well, I don't think BHop will be active enough to win a decision.

Of course, if like in the Pascal fight, Dawson takes too long to get going. As you said, early on against Glen Johnson he was in trouble. Hopkins could take the early rounds, and if he makes the latter rounds competitive, the 'old man' could pull it off Like Hopkins said in the face off against Pascal, you have to fight 12 rounds, Pascal is a 6 round fighter at best, BHop is very effective going into the 4th round, the 10th round and the 12th round. I just hope he doesn't lose because he gasses, that would be a shame. Never write Bernard Hopkins off, he's been written off too many times before.

Dawson will learn a lot from this fight, as does any fighter who faces Hopkins. I hope he rematches Pascal as well, if Ward, Kessler and Bute move up to LHW it could be a very exciting division in the next few years! Especially if Cleverly and Cloud prove to be excellent fighters. Unfortunately, Cleverly is fighting a disgracefully poor level of competition.

 

Yeah it's a shame things didn't happen for Joe a few years earlier in his career. Whether this was down to Joe, or a certain promoter I don't know. I mean you have to acknowledge that once Joe beat Lacy, he got the acclaim in the states, he then made fights with Kessler and Hopkins, not bad! If this had happened for him in 2003, he could have moved up to LHW aged 30, and made fights with the likes of Tarver and Johnson. I'm not sure who's fault it is. He could have been a force there.

I see what you're saying, however on the other hand Joe was a world champion, and when you have the opportunity to headline your own events, or fight on undercards abroad for less money, what would you do? I think you can attribute the blame to all the parties. What you have to understand, is that Joe only got a contract with HBO when he signed on to fight Lacy. If HBO had offered him a contract in say 2002, and he came to America, and beat Hopkins in Vegas (as he did offer to fight BHop in Vegas in '02), think about how different his career could have been? It's a shame that opportunity only came around at the end of his career.

If you look at Ricky Hatton, I would say you could attribute this blame to Frank, if so then Joe must take the blame as well as he kept on signing with FW. At the same time, Frank and Joe did offer to come to Vegas to fight Hopkins in 2002, if BHop didn't price himself out, things could have been very different.

The fight with Manfredo was a shambles, but Frank and Joe did what they had to do. It was important to keep building a fanbase in America, and Manfredo was an opponent they knew Joe could look good against.

I'll avoid the topic of RJJ, as we've been over why fought certain fighters, and why other fights didn't come off for Roy 100 times now, we'll just keep going round in circles

I agree RJJ is not the only reason. However, with the pulling power and fan-base Roy Jones had in the 90's and early 2000's, you have to admit that he had the power to make some of these fights. Roy should have made more of an effort, some of these fights should have come off, and Roy robbed his fanbase of some great nights. I refuse to believe that the opposition Roy fought, was the best available to him.

 

To move up early would have stopped him acheiving his record defences at SMW,and risk losses to stay unbeaten. These were two of Cals primary aims. So he wouldnt move up early.

 

Great reply.

I don't think Frank really wanted to put him in with a guy Like Roy, and I don't think Joe persued him at all. I think if the opportuntity came about, and the money was great, I think Joe would have taken it, but taking it and really wanting it, are two completely different things.

I see what you're saying, however on the other hand Joe was a world champion, and when you have the opportunity to headline your own events, or fight on undercards abroad for less money, what would you do?

I completely agree with you. I don't blame Joe one bit for doing what he did. But as I say, if that's what you're going to do, you can't have it both ways. I'd have huge amounts for Joe if he said something like "I was happy doing what I was doing, and Roy was great, but I never really pushed for that fight, I don't think the payday would have been great etc" But with Joe, he always comes across as though he's been hard done by, and that really bothers me. He claims he really wanted Roy, but Roy didn't want to know etc. Big risk for low reward. It's a load of rubbish in my opinion.

If he'd have made noises in the U.S. at 168, 175 and called him out or challenged him ringside like Collins, then fair enough. But he'd din't do anything to get a fight with Roy. So why is he always saying he was avoided? It's just pride talking. I think he knows deep down, that he wasn't good enought o beat him. The Lacy performance was great, but it was too late. I can remember Frank saying afterwards "The world is now is oyster!" Then he goes on to fight Manfredo.

It's a shame that the Hopkins fight didn't come off. But like I say, if he'd have gone Stateside earlier, he'd have been a much bigger name than he was in 2002 and he'd have been in a better position to negotiate.

Ricky Hatton is the perfect example of what Joe should have done. Floyd had no idea who Hatton was a few years before they fought. Ricky then dumped Frank and went Stateside to build up a fanbase. From there he hended up fighting Castillo and then he publicly called out Floyd post fight.

He said something along the lines of "There was more action in those 6 rounds, than what there is in 5 Mayweather fights!" Floyd watched that fight at home, and then afterwards he told Leonard Ellerbe that he wanted Hatton. Ricky just basicly goaded him to a fight. It was brilliant!

Joe's ambition didn't match his skills. Where as with Ricky, it was vice versa.

regards, Loudon.

 

I think he beats all.

Tarver always has a chance though and Ruiz is so big and Calzaghe is not a pot shooter.. so that might be more difficult than it was for Roy.

 

To answer the question in the tread headline:

Calzaghe vs Hopkins: Tough fight for Calzaghe as he would not have the luxury of Hopkins gassing halfway. A pick em fight IMO. If you look at how the both fighters performed at their prime it is easy to favour Hopkins, but ol' Slappy had a tendency to work things out, and stylewise Hopkins is not all wrong for him. If Jermaine Taylor could do it ...

Calzaghe vs Toney: Calzaghe was always hittable, and got caught flush by Kessler and even an old Hopkins and Roy Jones. Against Toney, who had a polished right counter, he would get hit a lot. Then again Calzaghe adjust his style, gets a feeling for the opponent and goes back to work. I would still favour Toney though.

Calzaghe vs Tarver: A confused Tarver gets caught up in a twelve round slapfest. Euro fans on ESB spend the nearest two weeks bragging and starting threads about how inferior American boxers are.

Calzaghe vs Ruiz: No way you get Calzaghe in the ring with a HW. And he just aint got the style to deal with bigger opponents. Calzaghe postpones due to injuries until the fight falls through.

Calzaghe vs the rest: Victory after victory, with reservation for a possible fluke loss here and there.

 

Jermaine Taylor faced a 40 year old Hopkins.

A prime Hopkins TKO'd Glen Johnson. Glen Johnson never been stopped in his career except when he faced Prime Hopkins, and Glen Johnson has many losses.

What about Calzaghe vs Glen Johnson.

Calzaghe pulled out of that fight a few times due to some injuries.

I think Glen Johnson's ruggedness would make him difficult to outwork, Glen Johnson always gives his opponents trouble except Prime BHop that is.

 

Time for me to get a new account, I hear

Even if Calzaghe would lose to Johnson, that wont mean he did worse than Jones, and the thread is aimed to compare Calzaghes and Jones assumed greatness. Thats why I overlooked The Road Worrior.

But to answer your question:

Calzaghes style of a mid range swarmer who relies on heart and chin means he can be outtoughed by the right opponent. Johnson could be that guy. He is hard to intimidate, can take a punch and have some power in his shots. At LHW he would be at his best, and I think he would have a good chance. But I would still favour Calzaghe from a common sense perspective. Johnson just lose to damn often.

At SMW I would give Calzaghe a clear edge. You might consider it blunt, but Johnson lost to Sheika in a tough fight, and then Sheika lost to Calzaghe in another tough fight. Calzaghe might look like he should have been a waiter rather than a boxing world champ, but he did not mind beeing in a scrap.

 

Great analysis!

Just a quick mention about Ruiz. You can't even comment on a hypothetical fight against Ruiz, because Joe would never have fought a Heavyweight like you say. Yes he didn't have the frame of Roy, but it doesn't make any difference. Joe could have fought at 175 earlier, but he killed himself to make 168 for the last few years of his career, when the division was weak. Joe would never have moved up to fight a Cruiser or Heavy. Now I've no problem with that at all, but the point of my post, is that Roy did move up, and he gets zero credit for it.

That really pisses me off! Joe wouldn't have considered it for any amount of money, even if it had've possible.

Roy goes up, beats him by a landslide, and then apparently the win is worthless. Ruiz is garbage, the win shouldn't even count etc etc. I think it's outrageous! How many of the 168 Super six guys would even consider going upto heavy?

regards, Loudon.

 

As far as I am concerned; Roy Jones moving up proves he is a showman, and there is nothing wrong with that. To see how the great Roy Jones would deal with a heavie captured the imagination of many fans, which justifies the move. Of course it was a cherrypick. It had to be. The idea of Jones defending the belt against the likes of Dr Vitali "Sadisticly beating up smaller guys" Klitschko is just bizarre.

It can be argued that Jones should have tried to clean out his own division instead, but beating a heavie with a belt was still an accomplishment.