Calzaghe vs RJJ's resume

Cal dominated? Ha! Really? Bernard was 28 years old when he fought Roy in 93.

 

I don't think any of us know what length Joe and Frank went to, to get a fight with Roy when both were prime. I feel they wanted it for the recognition, money and opportunities it would have brought. Joe would have been a great fight for Roy's record, and he had a good fanbase in the UK, think of the hype it would have generated, the UK's best facing the P4P number 1. Roy fought much smaller names, for smaller paydays

I agree with you that Lennox didn't feel Vitali would be his last fight. He did have one eye on retirement though, he'd mentioned it before, and coming into the Vitali fight he was on his career longest lay off. As Zod said, the WBC had ordered an immediate re-match with Vitali, so Roy coming and talking to Lennox didn't mean anything, as Lennox could not take that fight anyway, retirement or not.

Lennox had a lot of wear and tear by the time he fought Vitali, and I think that fight took even more out of him. It's alot to expect him to face Vitali in a rematch, then face Roy Jones as well, I'm not sure how his body would have coped with another war against the extremely durable Klitschko. You're entitled to your opinion, however I don't feel Roy was serious about facing Lennox. I think he wanted low risk high reward paydays.

You stated that he wanted to fight Holyfield before? If there was no point in fighting Holyfield, what point was there in fighting Tyson? $$$
Low risk, High reward paydays, that's what Roy was looking for in the HW division. If he genuinely wanted to be HW Champion, then after hearing Lennox was retiring, that would have meant the belts would be vacated and up for grabs, why didn't he stay and fight other contenders and belt-holders? Why go back down to LHW to face Tarver? Would it not have been better to try and fight top contenders in the HW division? Tarver was hardly a world wide house-hold name. You say he got under Roy's skin, but plenty of fighters called Roy out, and he never answered


It's interesting that you state Roy wanted to fight Holyfield in 1997, I never heard that before, do you have any links that I could read about that?

Out of curiosity, of the fighters we've listed that Roy couldn't make fights with, which would you liked to have seen Roy face the most? From any division Roy campaigned in

 

Yeah I had to step away from my PC when I saw that

I was like :desk

 

tell me about it. nnngg.

I mean, on what planet is an athlete at 42 physically superior to when he was 28? Or should I say what universe? It certainly dont happen to any athlete in THE ENTIRE history of our Universe. Athletes retire in their late thirties for a good reason!

Or is Hopkins from an alternate dimension where biology works in reverse and he gets better with age? Is he a fine wine, or perhaps his real name is Benjamin Button? Well then I cant wait till hes 60, hes going to be the next Ali by then. Christ give me strength.

 

From what I understand a boxers decline starts @35 ..Bernard Button ..

 

good ad lib there.:good

 

Hi thanks for the reply.

I've really enjoyed our last few debates.

Roy vs Joe would have been a great fight. It would have been absolutely huge over here, but it wouldn't have been in the U.S. Like you say, we don't know all the details, but my assumptions are based on the fact that he didn't do any of the following things, that I've been over.

He didn't try and make a name for himself in the U.S. and like it or not, The U.S. is the home of boxing. People say things like, don't have a go at Joe for not travelling, because Roy never travelled. Roy didn't have to travel, because he's American. I'm not saying it's fair, but that's the way it is.

He never fought up at 175.

To my knowledge he never publicly called out Roy.

Everytime Frank's contract expired, he resigned.

So based on those things, I don't think he really wanted a fight with Roy. If the opportunity came round, he'd have took it, but he didn't go looking for a fight. That's why I lost respect for him. He says he really wanted Roy but couldn't get him. I don't believe him at all. I think it was just pride talking.

I respect yours and Zod's opinions, but I don't agree about Lewis. I think Roy approached him, because earlier that year, if you read those links, Lewis was more than up for it. He thought he'd have an easy night against Roy for a huge amount of money, but after the problems with Vitali, he knew he wasn't the same fighter, that he once was.

Like you say, I think he knew he'd have another war with Vitali, and he didn't want one.

I agree about Tyson. Mike had just knocked out Clifford Etienne, but he was completely done. So I agree completely, that there was no point really. But, you're talking about two of the biggest names in boxing. The pound for pound no. 1 fighter in the World vs The most notorious boxer that's ever lived. It might have been a freak show, but there would be millions and millions of pounds generated. Everyone knew Mike was done, but I guarantee, the whole World would have watched it. It would have been absolutely huge! Roy had been a huge fan of Mike's growing up.

I honestly believe that after the Tyson and Lewis fights fell through, he wasn't interested in fighting any other Heavy. He was asked numerous times about Byrd. That was the far easier fight out of Vitali, Tua etc. He said he wasn't interested at all.

You're right about other people calling Roy out, like Collins for example, but Tarver was different. They were from the same State, they were the same age, and they fought when they were 14, and they never got on. Tarver was always in Roy's shadow, and they hated each other. Roy apparently told him years ago, that if he ever got to the top, he'd fight him.

They were always making jibes at each other, whenever the opportunity arose. Roy was really annoyed when Tarver went to the Olympics in 1996. Roy said that, it was a joke for a 27 year old man to be fighting young kids. Tarver didn't turn pro while late on.

So when Tarver embarrassed him at the Ruiz press conference, it stuck in his mind.

I'd have like to have seen Roy in lots of fights.

I wouldn't have been bothered about Eubank, but I'd have loved to have seen him fight Benn. Benn was one of my favourite fighters.

I'd have loved to have seen him against Joe in 2002. If I could pick any fight for him, it would probably be that one.

Then DM, just to shut everyone up, and Lewis.

I'd also have like to have seen him fight McCallum when Mike was a lot younger. Mike was a hell of a fighter. Roy at 160 against Mike in his 20's would have been a pick em fight I think. But at 160, Roy wouldn't have been at his best. But Mike's peak was 154, so I'm not sure what would have happened.

I've heard Roy mention Evander a few times over the years.

I'll have to look for some links.

But this one below is post fight from the Griffin rematch.

I think Buster Douglas is mentioned in the documentary, Beyond The Glory, that you might have seen. Roy Snr is interviewed.

I've really enjoyed this debate.

regards, Loudon.

http://youtu.be/HZmO2cxU8zs

 

I was wrong about that:

After the fight they entered into talks which didn't go any where. So Vitlai would fight Kirk Johnson to get bumped back to being Lewis's mandatory again. The wbc then got involved and said that they would stripe lewis if he had not agreed to a rematch by there deadline.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/boxing/2004-01-25-lewis-wbc_x.htm

 

Same :good

You make a very good point there, would Hatton have gotten the Mayweather fight if he stayed with FW?

Boxing is governed like no other sport, it's very hard to determine how much Joe wanted the fight with Roy. I think if he'd gotten the Hopkins fight in '02, and managed to beat Bernard, he may well have gotten the fight with Roy. It's a shame that fight fell through.

I see where you're coming from, and the evidence suggests that there was a dialogue between Roy and Lennox's camps, however I don't think this is strong enough evidence to suggest that Roy was serious about fighting Lennox Lewis.

What would Roy have achieved by fighting Tyson? As you said, it would have been a freak show. Low risk, High reward paydays, Roy wasn't interested in being HW Champion, otherwise he would have fought the other contenders like Byrd, Tua and so on.

True, but the interest in this fight only became huge when it was clear that Roy didn't want to make any other fights at HW. If he truly wanted to be HW Champion, instead of just seeking out an easy payday, he would have pursued the other belts against contenders when Lennox retired and vacated

I really would have liked to see Roy fight Benn as well! Benn would have had a mindset of just going to war, and attacking Roy from the first bell. Roy would have been made to fight harder then ever in his life, if he could have won that fight, it would have given him much more credibility for me.

Eubank would have been an interesting fight, Chris had KO power, a granite chin, his own awkward style and good skills.

Against Calzaghe in 2002 would be alongside Benn for me. Joe was a smart fighter, he was great at adapting to his opponent, he was very awkward himself and had great athletic attributes. Unlike many opponents faced (Like Griffin in the rematch), I don't think Joe would have been a sucker for Roy's lead left hooks, Roy had a very good lead right hand though, depends on how Joe would deal with Roy's speed. I'd love to see how Roy would have defended himself against Calzaghe's high speed, high volume offence. Like Lewis-Tyson, Calzaghe-Jones happened 7 years too late!

That was a cracking shot Roy caught Griffin with! I think if Griffin had survived the first 4 rounds, he could have made it a very difficult night. Griffin would always pose a problem for Jones stylistically. Thanks for finding that video.

Again, it's hard to gauge how serious Roy and his team when they make these claims. Did Holyfield ever comment on the possibility of the fight at the time?

 

That would have been a difficult situation for Lewis, so even if he could have fought Jones, he would have been stripped of his WBC belt? Which is a similar predicament

 

Mr Loudon, I am just applying the RJJ hate here by making analogies with current fighters.

RJJ haters, apply hate on RJJ because.

- RJJ avoided DM. - (Which I dont agree with, RJJ and DM never fought is more accurate statement)

DM was the lineal champ at the time, and an established LHW. He was basically the man of the division.

Similarly BHop is the lineal champ today, and an established LHW. He is basically the man of the division.

RJJ moved up from SMW to LHW, and beat Griffen (WBC), Del Valle (WBA), Reggie Johnson (IBF). But is hated on for not fighting DM (WBO).

If Andre Ward steps up to LHW, and "avoids" BHop (WBC), but beats up Cleverly (WBO), Cloud (IBF) and Shumenov (WBA). Would those RJJ haters give Andre Ward similar hate? I dont think so.
-------------------------------------------------------------

RJJ haters hate on RJJ because

- RJJ didnt fight a "good" HW

Like you already stated Mr Loudon. If such a jump from LHW to HW was easy we would have seen many LHW attempt such a feat.

A LHW winning the HW championship in modern times is a difficult task.

Since using Andre Ward is kind of absurd, and I agree it is a little way off. Lets look at a current established LHW doing something similar.

When RJJ moved up to HW to fight Ruiz, Lennox Lewis was the man of the HW scene.

Today the Klitsckho brothers are the man/men of the HW division.

If BHop, moves up to HW and beats up Povetkin (Which I think a conditioned BHop is more than capable off) and in the process avoids Wladimir Klitsckho, would he be given the same hate RJJ is given for so called "avoiding" Lennox Lewis while beating up John Ruiz?

My point here is this, the hate given to RJJ for the following reasons:-

- RJJ avoided DM
- RJJ avoided Lennox Lewis

(BTW I dont agree with those points, I am just stating what RJJ haters state)

Is absurd and ridiculous hatred IMO. Yes it would have been better if RJJ fought DM and Lennox but what he accomplished regardless of that is great feat anyway.

Anyway man, I hope you understand I aint trying to take the mick outta RJJ here, I appreciated what he has accomplished and he was one of the best offensive fighters I have seen.

 

Knockout,

Hi mate, another great reply. Thanks!

In my opinion, there's no way on earth that Frank would have gotten Ricky a fight with Floyd. But I've a lot of repect for Frank, and I think he's been great for British boxing over the last 20 odd years. You've also got to put yourself in Frank's shoes. He obviously had to try and protect his fighters, as well as deliver them good fights. I don't blame Frank at all for Joe's situation. I don't think Frank was desperate to put him in with Roy, but I definately think he wanted him to go to the U.S. a long time before he did.

If Joe had've fought and beaten Hopkins in 2002, everyone would have known who he was, and I think fans would have wanted a RJJ vs Joe match up. I think Joe must sit at home and have regrets about how is career turned out. He can be incredibally proud of what he's achieved, but he'll never be regarded as a true great, and I think he could of have been. I think Roy will also have a few regrets about some fights that never materialised.

Regarding Roy at heavy, we're just going around in circles ha! I'm really enjoying though!

I think him wanting Evander, then fighting Ruiz, prooved that he wanted to fight. Again, Tyson was shot to ****, but that was his dream fight. He actually kept the Ruiz weight on for a while, because he thought Tyson was on. When he found out if definately wasn't, that's when he had to rush back down in weight. After Tyson fell through, he just lost interest. As I say, he could have fought Byrd and took those titles. Because he wasn't interested in doing that at all, that tells me that he was down and he'd lost his motivation to fight there.

Even though Vitali was clearly a better fighter than Mike at that point, the fight was no where near as big. I honestly believe he'd have fought Lewis. I even think he'd have gone back up for him, after he'd came down for Tarver.

Benn would have been a great fight. I can't see anything other than a very late TKO though. Benn obviously had the power to knock him cold, but I don't think he'd have had the opportunity. I think Roy was at his absolute peak at 26 in 1995. I think the version of Roy that fought Vinny Paz, would want some serious stopping!

Eubank would have been interesting you're right. I just said I wasn't bothered, because I could see a really boring fight being decided on points. But it would have been intriguing.

Roy vs Joe, I agree it definately happened 7 years too late like Tyson and Lewis. I can't see anything past a late TKO by Roy. I think Roy would have drawn him into the centre of the ring, and dropped him a few times. Joe was great, but he was easy to hit. I think he'd spend more time defending than attacking. Also, I think going into the fight, Roy would have had a huge psychological advantage.


I think Griffin was a good fighter. I think he was underrated. He caused Roy a lot of problems in their first fight.

I've no idea if Evander ever commented around that time.

But I know that in 2002, he was more than willing to fight Roy.

There were some interviews on ***********.com last year with Murad Muhammad. I don't know if you read them? But I found them really interesting.

What do you think would have happened in a fight between Tyson and Lewis, when both obviously at their peaks?

I've thought about it a long time, and I must have read hundreds of posts over the years.

We know that Mike struggled against big fighters with a great jab, and his peak only lasted about four years. But if he was mentally and physically 100 per cent, and he'd got his supreme confidence, I could see him Knocking out Lewis. What do you reckon?

Someone asked me the other day about Ali at his absolute peak 65 ish, vs Mike.

I think Ali would have psyched him out, and beat him on points.

what do you think?

Great debate.

Many thanks!

Loudon.

 

Fantasic post mate!

I wasn't entirely sure who's perspective you were looking from.

People always say that Roy is overrated. I happen to think that he's underrated. I think Andre Ward is a hell of a fighter, but if you compare him to a mid 90's Roy, I they're worlds apart. That's how great I think Roy was.

You've got a great knowledge of the sport, and I always enjoy reading your posts.


Thanks!

Loudon.

 

RJJ was a legend but someone should provide some excellent insight on why he would murder Calzaghe, prime for prime. Joe had a style that was nearly impossible to beat. It would be a great fight. Stop acting like RJJ was untouchable.

 

Calzaghe's main attack was from mid range where he would have the opportunity to unload those flurries of slaps that would outwork his opponent.

RJJ in his prime would never have given Calzaghe that Mid Range. RJJ in his prime had the footspeed to stay on the outside, and would lunge in with counters and lead punches. While Calzaghe would have been stalking RJJ, RJJ would have been looking for opportunities to lunge in and attack.

Calzaghe's flurries will only be affective at mid range, RJJ had the footspeed to remain on the outside for long enough period for an easy UD.

If RJJ came out like he did in the Montell Griffen rematch, I think RJJ would KO Calzaghe early.
----------------------------------------------------
Toney's main strength was inside fighting and Mid range, RJJ made sure he never got into an inside brawl with Toney, because that would have been detrimental.

Hopkins vs RJJ was a chess match, but because RJJ was the faster man, he didnt give BHop a midrange or Inside fight.

Prime RJJ's athletic ability really made him difficult to beat.