Calzaghe vs RJJ's resume

Fantastic post. Great analysis, and I agree with you 100%!

regards, Loudon.

 

You have a point, it's a shame for Joe that things didn't happen for him a few years earlier in his career, he lost out on a lot of £££ and fame, which would have helped his acting career

Of course FW would not have gotten to where he is, without being extremely good at what he does. It's hard to criticise FW when he offered Hopkins a substantial amount of money, for a fight in Vegas in '02. Like Roy, much of Joe's legacy is also based on his H2H ability.

It's also a shame the Ottke fight couldn't be made, Sven Ottke was worse than Felix Sturm! I don't think Joe really ducked anyone at SMW, I think he should have moved up to LHW sooner, he could have been a force in that division, and made big money fights, with big names.

Vitali certainly would have been a low reward high risk fight for Roy. It depends on what perspective you look at it, if Roy simply wanted to cash out, then I have no problem with him wanting to fight Tyson, or Holyfield. Both fights represent huge paydays, against shot fighters.

My problem is that I don't think Roy was interested in the big fights at HW against the likes of Lewis. Now this is just my opinion, I think Roy saw the LHW division was dead, DM was finished, there were no big money fights, I think he was looking to cash out. Fighting Ruiz and winning a paper title was a great opportunity, and a great fight to sell to his fans, then fighting Tyson after would have been a massive payday, against a shot opponent, I doubt Mike would have landed a decent shot all night.

With Roy against Eubank, Roy would have won that fight in the centre of the ring, using his superior hand speed and foot speed.

Against Benn, I think Roy would have had the toughest night of his career. Benn showed terrific heart against Mcclellan, who was a monster. Benn had great power, good speed, however he was too keen on getting into a scrap. Roy would never engage Benn, and in terms of skills, speed and ring IQ you have to give it to Jones. Therefore, Benn's best chance is to land a decent shot at some point, it's hard to see that happening, although you can't rule it out.

You say a late TKO, my issue with that prediction is, in his biggest fights, Roy hardly if ever engaged his opponents. Like against Hopkins, Toney and Ruiz, when Roy really respected an opponent, he stood on the outside, and pot-shotted, using his speed and athletic advantages as his offence and defence. Without engaging, it is very hard to beat an opponent that skilled with that kind of speed advantage. However, with such limited offence, I don't see Roy stopping Joe.

Roy, even in his prime had stamina issues, he would often lay on the ropes against opponents, against Calzaghe that's suicide. With his high volume offence, and the fact that he's more comfortable in the role of the aggressor, if you lay on the ropes and take a breather, you allow Calzaghe to rack up points, and win rounds. Furthermore, Joe was extremely well conditioned, he could comfortably throw over 1000 punches a fight, over 100 punches a round. If you're laying against the ropes, he'll be more than happy to throw punches in bunches, rack up points, and he won't tire.

He was a very good counter-puncher, with a decent jab, that will always cause someone with Jones' style problems. That's what made the KO in the rematch so special, as Roy led, pressed the action and actually looked for an early KO, which you didn't see often with RJJ.

I had a quick look around, but couldn't find anything.

I'm sure he would have been anytime, it would have been a massive payday against an opponent even smaller than Evander (for once!)

Conventional wisdom is that a good big man will beat a good little man. However, Mike Tyson in his prime was a phenom, who had a style that was designed to attack larger opponents. Tyson without Rooney has a much smaller chance, especially the Tyson that fought Douglas! Lennox wouldn't engage Mike, he'd respect his power and speed. If Lennox can jab, move well, be quick on his feet, avoid getting pinned against the ropes, and do enough holding to survive the first 6 rounds, he has a great chance. It really depends on if Mike can find the right opportunity early on. I don't think Lennox would be scared, but he'd respect Mike. The fight will be won and lost in the first 6 rounds.

Post prison Tyson would have had a punchers chance, no more. Too one dimensional and mentally unstable.

What do you think?

I completely agree! A young Ali would have been in Mike's face in every press conference, and trash talking him in the media. What I find interesting, in the Holmes fight, when Larry was up on his toes, jabbing and moving, he really frustrated Mike. However, at 38 years old, and in poor shape Larry couldn't sustain it. Ali had unbelievable stamina in his prime, a great jab and right hand, more importantly he had the chin to take Tyson's power. Mike won't be able to KO him. Ali, dancing on his toes and using his jab, would frustrate Tyson to the point where Mike would lose his mind!

Many thanks to you too

 

Knockout,

Another fantastic post!

I'll have to reply tom mate.

Thanks!

Loudon.

 

No worries, look forward to it

 

It's easy to adjust to bums. Cant see calzaghe beating the toney or Bhop.

 

should have made this a progression timeline thing to make it more interesting. Like the Lewis resume vs Young Wlad Prime Wlad etc. Because if Calzaghe had to progression through RJJ'S resume he would have been knocked out.

Like example. Prime Calzaghe can take Prime Toney I think. But it was very young RJJ that fought Toney. So very Young Calzaghe vs Toney , Joe woulda died. True fact.

Prime Calzaghe vs Young Hopkins will be a good match. BUT it was very very young RJJ that fought young Hopkins.

so VERY VERY YOUNG Calzaghe vs Young Hopkins- Calzaghe get ktfo

 

'Loudon' you quoted my post by implying I had referred to Hopkin's physical prime,I had not mentioned athletic prime when talking about him. He started boxing relatively late in life and so his boxing prime was a late one too.

If it was a 100m race between 42y.o Hopkin's and his 28y.o counterpart, then the older one would probably lose, but if it was a boxing match between them I'd expect the older one to win.

He is one of that rare breed of boxers [which includes Wlad and Calzaghe] who had the ability to continuously improve throughout their career. Wlad at 36 would easily beat 28y.o Wlad, and Calzaghe at 37 would beat a 28y.o version of himself.

So going back to the original topic of this thread, and replying to those who laughably talk about Jones schooling Calzaghe, not a chance! This is because Calzaghe had NO WEAKNESSES at all, but Jones had a huge ***** in his armour with his lack of stamina [or energy inefficient fighting style]. Calzaghe would better than any one exploit this kind of weakness!

One person talked about Jones flooring Calzaghe in the first round of their fight, but seemed to have forgot that it was a forearm smash and not a punch, AND that Calzaghe recovered from it almost instantly.

It would have been a great fight between the two of them but as the fight went on, Calzaghe would have dominated. The only way Cal could have lost would have been through corrupt officiating [as happened with Cortez and Byrd in the Hopkin's fight].

Nuff said!

 

Knockout,

Thanks for your great reply.

I think Joe would definitely have been a big hit in the U.S. It is a real shame he didn't go in the late 90's when he was about 27. Sven Ottke was a complete joke in my opinion. There's no way he would ever have fought Joe. Joe certainly didn't duck anyone at 168. But the division was weak. When Benn, Eubank and Collins were there, it was exciting. Now the division is alive again with the Super Six. But when Joe was there it was poor.

He certainly should have moved up to 175 earlier. I think if he'd have moved up and won a belt a 175, I would say that would have been a greater achievement than staying and Unifying at 168. He could have beaten Tarver and Johnson, and that would have been more impressive than beating Kessler. I think in 2007, the 168 division was one of the weakest in boxing.

You've also got to take into consideration, how much trouble Joe had making weight, for the last 3 or 4 years of his career. Why would he kill himself in the welsh mountains, and starve himself, to fight in a weak division, when he could have moved up to 175 and huge fights? It doesn't make sense to me. That's why I don't think he was that ambitious. It's still an incredible achievement to do what he did, but his biggest win will always be against Kessler. I like Kessler, but he isn't and never will be, a great fighter.

You're right about Tyson. I think that would have been a pretty easy win for Roy. I can't see anything but a comfortable points win for Roy.

I agree with you regarding a fight with Eubank.

The Benn fight would have been great! Benn would have just gone at him and tried to bomb him out. I think it would have been like the Vinny Paz fight, where they were both talking to each other, and the crowd were stood up for most of the fight. I think Roy would have stopped him late on.

I said a TKO against Joe, because I think the first four rounds would be uneventful. I think Joe would be very cautious of Roy's speed, and early on it would be like a chess match. Joe was a great volume puncher, but against Roy, I don't think he'd have been as confident as usual. I just can't picture Joe really going at him. I think the longer the fight goes on, the more gaps that Roy finds. I can see Roy pot shotting him, and doing it more and more as the fight progresses. I think Roy would drop him a few times, and each time Joe would get up. But late on, I think Roy would have caught him again, and it'd have been stopped.

Roy's knockout of Griffin was amazing! A lead left hook/uppercut.

I honestly believe a young Mike Tyson with Kevin Rooney, would have knocked out Lennox. I can picture it like the knockout of Bruno, where he was on the ropes, and he hit him with body shots and a beautiful uppercut. Post prison, Mike doesn't have a chance in my opinion. I completely agree wih you. I think Lennox would have stopped him late on.

I completely agree about Ali also. I think Mike would shut down mentally after the half way point. Ali would have been constantly talking to him, and I think Ali would win comfortably. I think Mike would have had a slight chance early, if Ali made a mistake, but after 5 rounds, I don't think he'd have had much of a chance. I could actually see Ali stopping him late on, especially if it was a 15 round fight.

I've really enjoyed this debate, and i've enjoyed reading your opinions.

If you don't mind, I'd like to ask you a question. It's completely off topic, but I'd like your opinion on how you think Floyd Mayweather would have done against the Fab Four.

Well three really, because Marvin was obviously too big.

FM Vs SRL at 147

FM Vs TH at 147

FM Vs RD at 135/147

What do you think?

Many Thanks mate!

Loudon.

 

Hi mate,

fair points, and I agree that Hop got better as he aged, but he was hardly a novice when Roy beat him. Also, there's no way on earth that Joe dominated him. It was a very close fight, and I think it was quality over quantity. I think a draw would have been a fair result.

Regarding the fight with Roy, For me their 2008 fight has no bearing on what would have happened if they'd have fought 7/8 years earlier. You're right it was his forearm and Joe has always had a great chin and recuperative powers.

Joe was a great fighter! But you say he didn't have any weaknesses? Well he had a huge weakness, and that was, despite him being a great fighter, he was always relatively easy to hit. He got dropped a few times, and if you watched the Kessler fight, he was in serious trouble for the first 5 or 6 rounds. Kessler was catching him with some cracking shots.

Joe always left himself open, and he could often be dragged into a macho tear up in the centre of the ring. Styles make fights. I think Joe would have shown too much respect to Roy, and it would have made him extremely cautious.

You've also got to take into consideration, how mentally prepared Joe would have been. I think Roy would have had a huge psychological advantage going into the fight. I'm sure you've heard Joe's famous quote "Roy Jones is a hell of a fighter! I think I could give him a great fight, a really hard fight, but I know what my capabilities are, and I'd want to be paid the Crown Jewlls for it!" That doesn't sound to me like he really believed he could have beaten Roy.

You're right about Roy not having great stamina, and Joe was a huge volume puncher. But I can't see Joe throwing hundreds and hundreds of punchers, because he'd have been too wary of Roy's speed. I think Roy was faster than Joe, and as I say, I don't think Joe would have gone at him. I think he'd have sat back showing too much respect. And if Brewer and Kessler could find him, Then Roy wouldn't have had too many problems.

In my honest opinion, I think Roy would have scored a TKO. I don't think he'd have knocked him out, but I think the ref would have stopped it late on. I respect your opinion, but I don't think the fight would play out anything like the fight in 2008.

Good debate mate.

regards, Loudon.

 

42 year old sprinters can match 28 year olds when it comes to a tiny distance, so thats a very poor example. Linford Chrsitie and Ed Moses at 40 can run as fast as they did when 25 over very short distances.

What you should be referring to is the 40% (at least) loss of strength, more than 50% loss of lung power along with other losses.

Hence Bernard can beat Calzaghe for 5 rounds at 42, but at 28 can beat him over 12 rounds.

 

Joe's resume isn't as great as it should have been, to get the big fights, he needed to gamble and move up to 175 earlier, he had the skills and attributes to mix with the best there. His SMW resume is still good, he beat over 10 current, future and former world champions in his career. I also think he had one or two fights left before he retired, he would have beaten Pavlik, and maybe could have added Froch or Dawson as well. I think he would have won the super 6 if he was in his prime, I see him beating Froch, Johnson, Dirrell, Abraham, Green and Taylor and he already beat Kessler. Froch v Ward is a very tough match up, it would be a very boring fight that would almost certainly go to the score-cards. I could see Calzaghe winning a close UD, whilst Calzaghe, like Froch, likes to fight mid-range, and Ward would try not to give him the mid-range, Calzaghe is much quicker and had a higher ring IQ than Froch. Furthermore, Calzaghe had better inside skills than people give him credit for.

How do you think Calzaghe would get on against today's SMW's?

The first few rounds would be very tentative, I can't see either fighter engaging the other. The first few rounds is where Roy would be at his strongest, I see him building an early lead. It would get competitive in the mid-rounds, Roy won't be as explosive as early on. Calzaghe would start to figure out how to get his own offence off, when Roy would retreat to the ropes, then Calzaghe can pile on punches and rack up points. I don't see this being a one sided domination and late stoppage, that's unrealistic, Calzaghe had a good chin, good conditioning, and good recovery powers, far inferior opposition went 12 rounds with Roy.

Young Mike with Kevin Rooney certainly has a great chance, Lennox would have to be in survival mode in the first few rounds, and needs to see the mid-rounds to stand a chance to win, when Mike is less explosive.

Ali is all wrong for Tyson.

Same mate, you really know your boxing :thumbsup

Great debate! Mayweather is the best of this era, these were some of the best fighters ever! I think SRL and Hearns are too big and too skilled for Mayweather.

Hearns is all wrong for Floyd, too tall, too rangy and too skilled. Floyd doesn't hit hard enough to hurt Tommy, and won't be able to launch his own offence. If Floyd opened up, he'd get stopped, if he stayed in his defensive shell he can survive and would lose a wide UD. Tommy is quicker than Floyd at 147 as well.

SRL, like Hearns is too big for Floyd and too skilled. Leonard had great defence himself (see his first fight with Hearns), he would simply overwhelm Floyd, who won't be able to beat these great fighters by pot shotting and running. A similar result as against Hearns, Leonard has a better chance at stopping Floyd with his combinations.

Against Duran Floyd has a very good chance, especially at 135. Similar to Leonard, Floyd can get on his bike and run for 12 rounds. He won't stand and trade with Duran, he'll be smart enough not to engage him. Floyd is also very skilled on the inside (better inside fighter than SRL), and is physically stronger than many give him credit for. Right now I might lean towards Floyd because of his speed and defence, I would need to watch more of Duran to determine how he would trouble Mayweather.

What do you think?

 

Knockout,

Outstanding post mate!

I'll try and reply over the weekend pal, have a good one.

Loudon.

 

Prime RJJ easily beat Calzaghe

but Calzaghe will probably beat everyone on that resume other then Toney and young Hopkins

 

Good reply Loudon! Nice to see someone who can reply in an intelligent and fair-minded way!

Ren you commented on my reference to 100m sprinting by saying that 42 year olds can sprint as fast as 25 year olds! I suggest that you look at the current sprint performances of top athletes! You'll find it is rare for 100m sprinters to retain their speed even into their thirties. 200m and 400m sprinters can still be quick in their late thirties but these events depend less on fast reactions and high neurological efficiency.

Actually it is long distance runners who can perform well into their forties! You don't need fast reactions to run a 10K!