Can I Reasonably Omit Marciano& Frazier From My Ten ?

I also called them absolute greats.

And they were old.

And they were middleweights, among the greatest P4P.
But they were old and very small for heavyweights.
Though Marciano was small too.

 

If you're talking "greatness" then you can't omit them, certainly not Marciano. If you're talking h2h, then yes.

 

Totally agree.

Moore could arguably be called prime but it's very debatable

 

Their career was not defined at MW.

 

It's the age old question though about mental and physical prime.

Was he better as a 20 something MW exchanging victories with murderers row or better as a 40 something LHW dominating a division.

I don't know the answer.

 

And that's why it is so hard to make a realistic top 10 list.

Some guys (like Marciano) ground out what is a pretty awesome career against the odds, but h2h against the giants it becomes difficult to make a case for them. Others (like Dempsey) actually have a pretty sucky resume for ATG's, but those that saw them in the flesh and in their prime would put their todger on a block that they could beat any man to ever lace them up. Then you get guys like Vitali who could probably thump over half the ATG list h2h, yet, objectively looking at their resume, you can't really argue a place for them.

 

Frazier did dominate the elite names for an era of boxing. Knocked out Ellis, first guy to knockout Quarry and the first guy to stop Chuvalo, he beat Bonnavena and an unbeaten Muhammad Ali. Until 1971 there was nobody better out there to beat. Frazier cleaned up.

Marciano also peaked as a champion. There was nobody he did not beat, nobody he avoided. Knocked out every former or current World champion of his generation that was active within his career.

Archie Moore was an outstanding heavyweight contender in his own right beating #1 and #2 heavyweights to get his shot at Rocky. Archies status was never higher than when he fought Marciano.

Is it reasonable to omit champions of these credentials and promote ten less qualified champions above them?

 

Well, Frazier did beat Ali. Even a 1971 Ali I'd expect to defeat Tyson.
Frazier would also have a great chance of defeating Holmes and Johnson, and I think Lewis.
Maybe Holyfield would be a slight favourite for me against Frazier, but it's close.

 

I'm not so sure I could bet against the Frazier who beat Jimmy Ellis in a match up with Holyfeild.

Great that he was, Evander was life and death with Qawi and Dokes, Bert Cooper also nearly wiped him out. Only Bonevena troubled Frazier up until 1971 and that Bonevena beats Bert Cooper, Dokes and Qawi.

 

It's absolutely reasonable. I think all the fighters in your top 10 have an argument to be there, and Wlad is a given for me in the top 10 and Vitaly probably has a case, so that makes it even tighter.

 

The Dokes and Qawi fights were life and death? Btw, do you feel that Holyfield was at his heavyweight best against Qawi...?

 

While we're on the subject , I'm less certain that Foreman makes my top 10 than I am about Frazier and Marciano.

He's a bit hard to know where to rank. Winning the title by destroying a dominant undefeated champion and then winning it back 20 years after losing it are two outstanding achievements, but outside of those his resume is thin. Even in his first career he's only something like 5-2 against ranked opp.