Can someone explain to me, through his resume, why people call Usyk a top 5 ATG?

Yeah, a lot of waste paper.

 

Top 4 is DEFINITELY -

Ali, Lewis, Holyfield, Tyson. So you have 4 that no sane person would replace with Usyk.

So who are the contenders for the 5th spot?

Wlad
Marciano
Louis
Holmes
Fraizer
Foreman

So is Usyk better than all those in that list above?

 

Holyfield and Tyson definitely aren't a lock for Top 4.

 

The Brown Bomber is above both IMO, Ali / Joe Louis are 1/2 at Heavyweight, and order doesn't really make much odds to me.

 

And by those metrics, Usyk has an argument for Top 5 all-time. There are plenty of professional people in the boxing ecosystem that are already putting him there. Knocking out 25 cab drivers to rack up a bunch of title defenses and grow his W/L ratio shouldn't be something he has to do to be considered one of the best of all-time.

TSNO seems to think that beating a white collar fighter, a middling Turkish HW with no big time wins, and a kid who hasn't fought anyone with a pulse yet would make Usyk Top 5. Do you see how silly that sounds? It's just pushing the goalposts to try and deny what you should already be able to see.

 

Yeah, all depends how you rank fighters. But Ali/Louis are a lock for number 1 and 2 as NOBODY is touching their resumes.

 

Beating Kabayel and Wardley adds another batch of top contenders to his resume, which is crucial, when you're competing against champions with wide or top heavy resumes in all-time debates. Not to mention competing with guys with long stretches of dominance.

 

The truth of the matter is, a few are, but most aren't.

 

First, scorecards don't mean ****. Usyk has always been the B-side having to go up against the superstar Brits who the boxing establishment has wanted to win. We constantly see how often foreign fighters get screwed when fighting in Britain and against Brits in general. Hell, it JUST happened again with Wilder v. Chisora where the ref was completely against Wilder and one judge had a bonkers scorecard to score it for Chisora.

Delboy won three rounds against Usyk. That's it. Usyk boxed his ears off and probably could have stopped him late in that fight if he'd cared to. Then the nonsense narratives started getting pushed by all the Brits like Haye, Fury, etc. that Delboy actually won that fight or it was a draw. Nonsense. If it had actually been close they would have robbed it for Delboy.

Same thing with fighting AJ. First fight with AJ was actually a 10-2 or 9-3 performance. The rematch was 9-3 or 8-4. Those are dominant performances against a guy three inches taller and 20-25 pounds heavier and a 4 inch reach advantage. Just because Eddie Hearn paid off Glen Feldman to rig his card for AJ to turn it into a split decision doesn't mean that's actually what happened.

Again, same thing with the Fury fights. Usyk beat the **** out of Fury in the 1st fight. 8-4 plus a knockdown. The Canadian judge associated with the WBC rigged his card for Fury. No one outside of Frank Warren and people looking to make a buck off Fury v. AJ thought Fury won that fight. The rematch was scored 8-4 across the board, but honestly you could have given it even wider to Usyk. Fury didn't clearly win a round outside of the 5th.

So no, Usyk hasn't struggled with these guys. He's clearly won all his fights. He's never had to have the judges rob it for him like so many past greats like Ali. And he's done it against guys twice his size.

And again, reading comprehension people! What did I actually say? Did I say Usyk was a lock to beat every great HW in history? No, I did not. What I actually said was:

Name 5 guys who clearly, no issues whatsoever beat him on any given night.

If Usyk isn't a Top 5-10 HW, then you should be able to pick out a gang of dudes who would wipe the floor with him. You can't. Because there isn't anyone who would. He gives anyone in the history of the sport a hell of a night.

As far as your little list goes?

Wladimir Klitschko -- No chance. Usyk is built to beat big, slow, jab and grabbers. He actually told Wlad to retire before he got to HW else he would beat him up and steal the belts off him.

Mike Tyson -- Peak early 20s Mike that was crushing cans in the 80s? 50/50. Mike would have to get him early. If it goes past 4-5 rounds Usyk wins.

Larry Holmes -- 70/30 for Usyk. Larry's jab was impressive, but Usyk is great at slipping jabs. Plus, Larry struggled with southpaws in both the amateurs and the pros.

Lennox Lewis -- All timer of a fight. 50/50

Muhammad Ali -- Absolute peak Ali? Still give the edge to Usyk. Ali didn't have enough power to bother Usyk and peak HW Usyk is fast enough to blunt Ali's dancing. Plus Ali hardly ever fought a southpaw. That'd screw him up.

Evander Holyfield -- Usyk is just flat out better. Holyfield only knew how to stand directly in front of guys and go to war. The angles Usyk cuts would wreck him. Easy decision win.

George Foreman -- Old or young, George is too slow. His power has always been overrated (though still very good) and Usyk has been in with plenty of big punchers. Usyk and Foreman are actually the same size. Just Usyk is way more technical, fast, and has better stamina. Easy decision for Usyk.

Sonny Liston -- Liston has to take a dive to pay off his mob bosses. Easy Usyk win. /s

Riddick Bowe -- Is this the six months of peak Bowe when he beat Holyfield the 1st time? Still can't deal with Usyk. Only fought one southpaw in his career. Usyk runs circles around him and points him out.

Joe Frazier -- Only had one punch, the left hook. He's a much smaller version of Delboy. His style worked well against most of the 70s crop, but fails against modern boxers. Usyk moves better, boxes better, and is the same size as Foreman who obliterated Frazier twice. This is one of Usyk's easier wins.

 

Wlad was an opposite of slow. He had very good feet for a big man and his punches were explosive and crisp. He also have everything to give southpaw trouble - top 3 jabs in HW history, ATG right hand and amazing left hook. He also had a lot of experience against southpaws. On top of that he's an elite clincher, not sloppy Fury who got beaten in his own game by Usyk. Usyk never fought a guy who was as good at boxing and was one of the biggest punchers ever. Additionally, Usyk himself doesn't have the power to bother Wlad like guys who dropped him did.

 

I'm just amazed I'm seeing people still say Uysk Chisora was close

 

Compared to Usyk, Wlad is molasses. Wlad's jab isn't Top 3 in history, that's just silly. His right hand was great, sure, but his left hook? The one he missed AJ with over and over and over? If AJ can swerve it then Usyk surely can. And quit disrespecting Usyk's power. This dude had Delboy looking cross-eyed, had AJ almost put out multiple times, sent Fury to ***** street in an all-time ass whooping, and then smoked Dubois and sent his mouthpiece flying. Wlad was chinny. That's why he had to get Stewart to change his style to boring ol' jab and grab, because he kept getting KO'd. I mean, you seriously can't be pretending Ross fuggin' Purrity and Lamont Brewster are some all-time power punchers. C'mon, man.

 

Yeah, I had it 9-3, Delboy didn't do squat after his bull in china shop start

 

There are some good points here, but I would debate a few of them, namely Tyson and Frazier; these are two of the worst style matchups for Usyk - at least on paper and I think you are overegging things a bit with these two. Usyk beat Breidis in a really close affair (some folks have it a draw) and I think peak Tyson and Smokin' Joe give Usyk some real trouble. I'm not saying they would 100% win, but I'd have 86' Tyson 60/40 favourite, and Frazier is a real undersell here and would have that more 50/50. I'm also not saying that Breidis was stylistically like Tyson or Frazier, but it does show that Usyk was really made to dig that one out by a smaller man with great fundamentals

Same with Holmes think 70/30 to Usyk is a bit much; at the creme de la creme level I think it's hard to take 70/30 type claims as credible, IMO most of these are 50/50, and to say prime Wlad has no chance? Again a bit much.

What it does show as other's have claimed is that H2H Usyk is a live dog against any heavyweight in history; but that doesn't make him necessarily a top 5 heavyweight with his current resume (and the current stink of the Rico farce). Resume counts for a lot and unless you count his Cruiser record towards heavyweight as well top 5 is a bit of a stretch. Top 10 i think so, but top 5 is much tougher to justify

 

According to Steward, Wlad's jab is the best in the history of HW division, and he trained some great jabbers, including Lennox. Wlad is not as quick as Usyk, but who is? He's not slow by any measure and he's quicker than every heavyweight Usyk faced, barring Fury. Wlad fought AJ when he was 41, lol. Not disrespecting Usyk power, he has good power, but not enough to bother Wlad the way Sanders or Peter did. He didn't lose to Purrity and Brewster because of a chin, he lost it because of stamina issues, which he fixed of under Steward in his prime. Wlad has everything to beat Usyk and would be a nightmare for him.