Can someone explain to me why Timothy Bradley is in the p4p top 10??!

Ha Ward, Dawson and Klitschko above JMM.

IDIOT!!

 

What's wrong with Wlad ahead of Marquez? And Dawson above Marquez wasn't bad, bare in mind this was Dawson before his loss to Pascal.

 

Dawson should never have broken into anyones top 5. I think he was loved due to being a mixture of American, stylish (in a fighting sense) and most importantly because he was getting good exposure on TV against household names.

If the lower weights got the TV recognition that LHW did, there's no way Dawson would've broken anyones top 5.

If Dawson can be top 5 I think Haye could legitimately be. He's a former undisputed Cruiser champ which is more than Dawson achieved at his weight (granted it wasn't his fault he couldn't secure a fight with hopkins), has good athleticism and skill and has just made the most difficult weight jump in history to do something only a very few handful have done successfully.

I sincerely think that beating Mormeck in France is a better win that any of Dawson's as well.

I'm not saying I have Haye anywhere near my top 5, I'm just just using him to point out that many of the P4P lists are based on exposure and the "respected" opinions of a minority of people that seem to get followed.

 

excellent post.

 

I think his ability is a large part of it. He's still of the best technical fighters in the game even despite that defeat to Pascal - who I expect him to beat in a rematch. He might crack the lower end of my top 10 even now largely on that basis (and also Tarver x2 and Johnson x2 aren't bad top wins). It's not like there's a massive array of talent to choose from nowadays aswell.

 

correct, only an idiot would make a p4p list like that. how can one win over kessler (who the poster never rated anyway) trump the resume of marquez?

who in their right minds would put chad dawson as number 3 on there p4p lists by identifying that dawson had beaten glen johnson (14 defeats) and adamek (who was weight drained at light heayweight).

 

how would you compare chad dawson and david haye p4p tommy, baring in mind that haye unified the 3 main belts at cruiserweight, beating mormeck in france and then moved up in weight and won the wba heavyweight title again fighting away from home v valuev.

 

Erislandy Lara i rate as being one of the best technical fighters in the game right now but you dont see me throwing him in the p4p list.

You gotta prove yourself to make it on that list and when Dawson finally took on a young top fighter which he hadnt done in a while he got beat.
I actually think Cloud also beats him. Dawson seems to be missing something. Im not really sure what it is....

 

Haye seems to be largely forgotten in P4P terms. Belt wise I don't take any notice to be honest, they mean very little to me in terms of how I rank a fighter because of the regularity with which they are banded about these days.

In resumé terms, I take into account the last couple of years worth of activity more so than that preceeding it. Haye's cruiserweight exploits were a long-time ago now and he can't keep living off those forever, his last 24 months of activity or so have seen him beat Valuev, Ruiz and Harrison which is not a good resumé in P4P terms.

Dawson in the last couple of years has his rematch wins over Johnson and Tarver in there coupled with his loss to Pascal. That loss dents him a bit, but for me I would largely expect him to beat Pascal in a rematch. Ability wise, I would give a clear edge to Dawson to be honest.

Dominance wise they are pretty level. They've established themselves amongst the best in their respective divisions but not the best in terms of recent form and wins. Resumé wise, there's a slight, slight edge to Dawson recently. Harrison is completely irrelevant, Ruiz was past his best and despite Tarver being also, I feel Tarver is still a better fighter and a better win in context, and then you've got a win over a past-prime but still world-level Glen Johnson and a close-loss to one of the top names in his division against a close win over belt-holder Valuev.

Dawson might crack the lower end of my top 10 at the moment and that's largely based on his ability, I can't imagine having him any higher than #9 at the moment though. Haye wouldn't crack my top 10, possibly top 20 but I've really not put much thought into extending my list beyond 10.

What about you, how do you feel they compare in P4P terms?

 

Erislandy Lara doesn't have a shot of beating everybody at 154lbs though, does he? It's all well and good displaying his abilities as a fighter, but that's at the level of a highly-rated prospect. Dawson has displayed his abilities against the top names in his division and at top form might beat anybody at 175 right now, including Pascal in a rematch and Hopkins, both of who should be looked at highly in P4P terms in my opinion, especially the latter.

Cloud would get out-classed by Dawson on top form. And in resumé terms, Dawson still has a close loss to Pascal coupled with wins over Tarver and Johnson. Comparing Lara to him ona P4P scale when Lara has been fighting the likes of Danny Perez and Grady Brewer is completely inappropriate and absolute nonsense.

 

Alright first highlighted sentence: How does he not have a chance of beating anyone? Name one fighter you would favor over Lara.

2nd: So Dawson has displayed his skills against the top fighters in the division? Who? old Johnson and Tarver? When he finally fought a young top fighter he looked like a deer in the headlights. He didnt know what to do with a young strong fighter who has terrible technique on top of that.

3rd: Well it seems that the way you rank fighters p4p is based on ability and Lara has more ability than Dawson does. Of course he wouldnt make my top 10. Not even top 30 i wouldnt think but going on just ability he and Rigondeaux should be in the top 5. Just like all the Cuban fighters are alwyas hyped up because of what they did in the Ams and their usually impecable style yet not many of them have success at pros.

You can not rank p4p based on just ability. Its a combination of alot of things which is why Ward and Dawson cant be listed above JMM. Wlad could possibly be but thats reaching.

 

You really rate Lara that highly don't you? Listen, he's a good prospect but that's all at this stage. To rank him amongst the best at 154lbs is a step too far. Cotto, Dzinziruk, he'd struggle with even Angulo and Cintron at this point, he's just not ready - yet.

Yes, Johnson and Tarver were old. But still world-level and still arguably amongst the best in the division, two wins over each doesn't look bad on his resumé. Lest we forget Adamek in the past aswell and Eric Harding.

Like I said, I believe Dawson would beat Pascal in a rematch. I don't know what was wrong with him in that fight, but he didn't let his hands go at all. It was a poor performance and not Dawson at his absolute best.

Lara has more ability than Dawson? Like I said, Lara is a good prospect. And prospect is it. Dawson is a world-level fighter who beat some of the best fighters in his division. Lara would struggle with the best guys in his division at this point. Lara is top 5 on ability P4P? Christ.

I'm not ranking based entirely on ability. That is a large chunk of it, but so is resumé. I'm not arguing either Ward or Dawson should be ranked ahead of Marquez at this point, I was talking about back before Dawson lost to Pascal it wouldn't have been so bad, because Marquez recent resumé consisted of a one-sided loss to Mayweather and then a pair of wins over Juan Diaz, who was B level at the best at the time, aswell as a win over a way past-prime Casamayor.

Wlad beat the best fighters in his division with the likes of Chambers and Chagaev in about dominant fashion, and ability wise he's up there with Marquez. I have no problem rating him about Marquez, though there wouldn't be a massive gap between them.

 

It's pointless us discussing though because we're never going to agree as we have different criteria we aren't going to budge on. You for instance had Froch at #7 in your P4P list, I wouldn't have him over Ward at this point because despite having a resumé that's a bit better, I'd take Ward over him in ability by a fair margin at this point. Likewise you had Adamek #8 on your P4P list, I wouldn't because I feel his CW resumé was over-rated on the whole other than Cunningham and I don't rate him at HW. I wouldn't even have him over Haye for those reasons.

 

I know that list was done after Mayweather beat Marquez, but because of the circumstances of that fight, you can pretty much ignore it. I don't consider it a loss which hurt JMMarquez at all and, apart from that, Marquez has a really good recent resume. I think his recent resume alone is better than Klitschko's at this point but then, when mentioning Froch and Ward, you said Ward should be ranked higher because he's better. If that is the case, Maquez surely deserves to be ranked well ahead of Wlad? You could argue Wlad is more dominant, albeit against opposition who are less threatening than a guy like John Murray, but a better fighter? Even in pound for pound terms, I don't think there's even a fragment of a case for that.

I've rated Wlad in the top 15 for years now though. I still don't consider him top 10. Whilst his dominance is impressive and should be highly regarded, his opposition is just too poor to give him that jump into the top 10.