Can Sugar Ray Robinson be overtaken?

For me would have to say it probably isn't possible as you have noted fighters today at the top tier of the sports fight twice a year at best so is hard to bulid a body of work quite like the old timers have.

Couple this with the proliferation of belts at the weight and there will almost always be guys missed or not faced who will rightly or wrongly be held up as damaging a fighters legacy. Add into this the current trend for division hopping and when guys move through divisions almost annually they simply don't stick around the weights long enough to create the kind of records in their weight that a lot of old timers can boast.

Unfortunately the kind of moves that could help modern fighters to stand favourable comparsion with old timers such as getting rid of some of the alphabet belts and dumping some of the nonsensical junior divisions are unlikely to happen any time soon.

 

i don't think so, as it is right now. boxing could resurge in america with continued mexican immigration, and maybe we could see something like that. The system is just so ****ed. Too many orgs, too many straps, too many weight classes and the fighters don't fight and spar often enough to get that good. Maybe all the countries highly involved in boxing(USA, UK, Mexico, PR, Cuba, Japan) should make a move and try and force some sort of reform on the sport, but I don't know how that would work. Boxing is in a terrible terrible state right now.

 

After defeating Ruiz, I think RJJ came as close as it was possible to get during the 12 round era. If he'd retired then and there (as he clearly should have), his supporters would have cited his heavyweight success as evidence he surpassed Robinson.

The way boxing is now, I can't see it happening. Even if the championship distance is restored, and top fighters resume the activity level of a Castro, Brazier, Chavez or Ramirez, the sport now has too much competition for first rate athletes.

PBF wanted to be acknowledged as supplanting Robby, but 41 fights doesn't cut it, and he's almost surely past his natural peak at 33, unless he's a freak like Moore.

 

I believe Henry Maske has already achieved this distinction.

 

Mr Rowleys reply sums it up very well
I cannot see anyone getting a resume like Robinson,Armstrong or Greb with the current state of the game
Ray Leonard is the most talented fighter I have seen but is inactive compared to those great fighters
Taken a generation on then Floyd who i believe is the most talented of the current fighters has taken this on further and fighters at the top level are far more risk adverse

 

Impossible unless there are huge sweeping changes. The talent pool is too divided and the fighters are nowhere near active enough. Anybody you can think of be it Leonard, hearns, hagler, Jones, Toney, Hopkins, Mayweather, Pacquiao, Barrera Morales etc etc etc etc.
Don't come close to the number of fights (let alone wins) against good, good fighters. There aren't enough exceptions to prevent Robinson's record being a who's who of the best fighters of his era (which includes the golden age of middleweights-which was the best division until they fractured it for sanctioning fees)

 

Not by any modern fighter. However, Fitzsimmons, Langford, Greb, and Armstrong all have a claim to the #1 spot as well, in my view.

 

Personally, I neither think Robinson is p4p number one nor is he the greatest ever. IMO there are at least 3 other fighters, perhaps even 5, who have as much claim as him.

I can see the point of your question though. And like the others I don´t see it. The divisions aren´t as deep anymore, there are too many of them, there are too many titles, too much money and politics. And they fight not often enough. Perhaps times need to get tougher, perhaps boxing must die and be resurected in a new form afterwards. I don´t know but as long as it is like it is we won´t see no one coming close to those. The best we can get is another Pacquiao.

 

Based on what you've read, b, or first-hand observation?

 

Bodhi..im interested in your reply to john garfield
I have not met many fight fans who do not consider Sugar Ray as at the least a top 3 ATG
Lots of those guys were fighters themselves who had not had the benefit of seeing Sugar Ray first hand..They knew he was a very special fighter and i see nothing in the video clips or his record to dispute that

 

How on earth do we define greatest P4P fighter of alltime ?
each person has a different definition, according to his own personal tastes...
For example=The fighter who epitomized, all around ability and beauty
dominating his class has to be Ray Robinson, who I was lucky to see in his prime as a Welterweight...He had EVERYTHING, including longevity...
But, could Robinson accomplish what a Harry Greb did in a 300 fight career, licking middlewights, light heavyweights, and heavyweights,often
being OUTWEIGHED 15 to 50 pounds, against many great Hall Of Famers,
time and again, and with the handicap of seeing only with ONE EYE,
during a good part of his fabulous career. ? Never, I say...Greb did not
have classic beauty in the ring, but what he DID have , has not been surpassed by anyone his weight...
Along with Harry Greb giving away such weight we have Ruby Bob Fitzimmons,really a middleweight on the scale , but a heavyweight in the upper body..We know his amazing KO power...What about OLD Fitz ?
And of course last but not least, the great Sam Langford at about 170
pounds destroying HEAVYWEIGHTS in a LONG career.What about him ?
My point is do you pick Ray Robinson , who though the classiest to behold, but never would have been able to lick the roster of the trio above, even accounting for being a little lighter than Greb, Fitz, or Old
Sam...They licked the best fighters 2 or 3 divisions ABOVE their weights,
something that Robinson wisely avoided...
To some up=What is meant by the best P4P fighter ?
Is it beauty or is it accomplishments ? What say you ESB ?

 

I´m a facts guy. Meaning when judging a fighter my main focus is on resume and accomplishments. I don´t like h2h. Pure speculation. I can´t go by that. Going by film is also hard. There are great fighters we have no or only very few or only past-prime footage of. It´s not fair to those fighters judging them by footage. Additionally, even when we have film it´s hard to compare. It´s not as if all fighters fight the same quality of opposition under the same circumstances.

Having said that, I want to make clear that I have no intenation of downgrading Robinson. His resume and accomplishments are awesome. He certainly has a claim as the greatest ever and p4p number one. But he is not the only one.
And yeah, from the available film he looks awesome. And most of it is just past-prime footage. You have seen him for real and if I remember right you think he was the greatest. I haven´t. I can´t go by that. I have to go by what I have.
From what I have seen, purely by film, I´d say him, Louis and Duran were the ones that impressed me the most.

 

Yep, I agree. That´s why I have no such lists anymore. They are fun and from discussing them you can learn a lot but they are really subjective rubbish.

I agree with your picks of Langford, Greb and Fitzsimmons to rival Robinson. Two others I think are roughly in the same mold are Armstrong and Charles.