Can Sugar Ray Robinson be overtaken?

Question is, can anyone supercede greb?

No.:deal

 

the days of the true boxing teachers may be gone. there may be a few left who can create a masterpiece with an empty canvas but the percentage is way way lower than what it was. so what happens when a young man with great potential wants to be a fighter nowadays? goes to Gleasons? recipe for disaster. it's pure luck that the combination of great teacher and natural fighter can meet. for that reason alone I would say that we probably will never see another fighter reach the levels of the true greats.

 

Well said N...During the Golden Ages of Greb and Ray Robinson, there were
many, many, more times the amount of fighters,fighting bi-monthly often
and honing there trade..Therewere a large amount of great full time boxing
trainers, plying there trade, teaching skills for the fighters, who applied this knowledge by fighting often, against the very best opposition...
When I would go to the famous Stillmans Gym, I would see these great
teachers instructing their fighters, who PAID ATTENTION to them...
For example - In the New York area there was a pro card EVERY NIGHT of the week, excluding Sunday...The boxers those days fought the best
opponents, and it was the survival of the fittest those days...
The cream rose to the top , producing the Grebs, Walkers, Leonards,
Peps,Robinsons, Ike Williams, Gavilans,and so many more great fighters
who are now sadly forgotten...
Those days a fighter went through four years of "College", today with their 40 or so bouts, they go to one "semester", if I may use an analogy.

 

I like that analogy. Because it should be like school. from what I've read about Stillman's, it seemed like a great learning environment. And that there was unity between most of the trainers there. (please correct me if i'm wrong Burt) Like if one fighter's trainer wasn't there, then he could go to another great trainer who wouldn't mind showing them things and fine tuning them accordingly. What I see in gyms nowadyas are slimey trainers, allways with their hands out for money and trying to steal fighters from other trainers right under their nose. Not teaching worth a damn either. it just creates a bad environment.

 

Was George Gainsford a good trainer??? I was under the impression he was always average, he claimed he was the best because he had Ray but the press shut him up by saying "what about all the other fighters you have that were not good?" He only had one success-Robinson. George answered all his questions and knew a bit. I'd say, but it can't have been him that taught Ray to master very punch the way he did, to move, and have that speed and killer KO power, non of his other guys had that. It musta been Ray on his own, or some of the old-timers still at the NY gyms. I dont think Gainsford really taught Ray most of what he knew which is a great testament to Robinson.

Iv'e also heard that Ray wasn't always looking good in the ring in some fights and things were tampered with to make him sound good in the papers because he was a star. such as his his 1st bout with Kid Gavilan, the audience felt Kid won it and the news didnt like that a cuban/foreigner beat the Robinson everyone loved. so they changed the story to make it look close and the film was destroyed, but most of the audience at the bout booed considererably when Ray won, I don't beleive it for a minute, but some say this was the image given to Ray while he was fighting. unbeatable.

But sure, Chappie for Louis, Goldman for Marciano, Kearns for Dempsey, all great teachers , we dont have those kinda guys anymore. Interesting tidbit, Johnson asked to be Louis's trainer but was declined by his managers because of the image he had as champ, Louis people wanted Joe to be the total opposite. Because Johnson was angry by this, he went to the press and said Schemling would win the (1st) fight they had together), which he did. Dunno if thay story's common knowledge or rare but I found it interesting...I'm done now.

 

Suagr Ray was special. He took it upon himself to learn how to throw punches while moving in all different directions. Practiced for hours. But he had a lot of questions which he aimed towards Gainsford. Gainsford may not have been an all-time great trainer, but by today's standards he might be an excellent trainer. Otherwise he wouldn't have been able to answer those questions properly. Ray Rob had exceptional punching technique, i'm sure he he learned at least some of it from his coach.

 

Answer: Four times. He won it five times, but was defeated for it only four.

Too many people mindlessly and reflexively answer since he won it five times, he also must have lost it five times. It needs to be pointed out he ended his second reign of his own volition, retiring after his own failed challenge of Maxim in 1952.

It was the only one of his five MW reigns where he produced more than one successful defense, with a decision over Olson, and the knockout of Graziano. Had Ray elected to carry on at that stage, Olson would likely not be in the IBHOF today, and Robby most probably retains his title through at least five more years. (Olson's failed challengers were Castellani, Gavilan and Langois.) The 1955 comeback knockout over Bobo in December 1955 may have made Robinson a legend according to Jimmy Cannon, but the three years of title reign he missed after Maxim can be argued to have cost his middleweight resume more than his four unsuccessful defenses did.

 

Since Stillman's Gym, 'n the trainers there have come up, thought I'd put my two cents in for a guy that's forgotten:

Stillman’s Gym was like rush-hour on Broadway in the mid 1940s: Hall-of-Fame boxers and trainers bumping into each other tearing from one side of the cavernous former union hall to the other, while a florid Lou Stillman growled non-stop epithets over a loud speaker drown-out by clanging bells and telephones.

It was against that setting, on a frigid afternoon, I climbed the 13 steps to Stillman’s – with more than little trepidation -- to learn how to box and emulate local idols, Rocky Graziano and Jake LaMotta.

The gatekeeper at the head of the stairs, collecting quarters for entrance, was manager Jack Curley, under the gimlet eye of Lou Stillman seated on a raised chair next to ring # 1.

I paid and asked Jack Curley if he could set me up with a trainer.

After appraising me like pawnbroker, he crooked a finger at a character the image of the Penguin in a Batman comic book.
“Izzy, see what the kid’s got.”

He must have been mid-40s, about 5-7 – bulging wall-eyes, the drained pallor of a lifetime in airless gyms, and dark, kinky-curly hair threatening to uncoil but bulldogged down and parted in the middle like a ‘20s bootlegger.

His nose was much too long for his face and pointy as a dart. He had no chin, no neck, was shaped like a pear and his stomach hiked up his trousers to his chest. He wore what must have been a white T-shirt at one time and an unbuttoned cardigan sweater with a towel thrown over his shoulder.

Rocking back on his heels, he shuffled over, chest out, straight up and flatfooted; his shoes pointing outward like a Garment Center salesman. The only thing missing was the Penguin's umbrella.

He was my coach for the years I trained at Stillman’s. His name was Izzy Blank, and he looked after me like a son.

Though Izzy never gained the notoriety of a Charley Goldman, Ray Arcel, Whitey Bimstein, and the like, he was respected and embraced by the fraternity and was spared, for the most part, from Stillman’s wrath

As good or bad as I ever got, Izzy never allowed me to forget what he thought unpardonable: As a teenager, I did what all the other kids did, I carried a condom in my wallet-- not that I had chance to use it-- but it was expected.

One day while changing, the rubber fell out of my wallet onto the floor and Izzy saw it. If I did anything after that that didn't live up to his expectation, he shrugged: "Sure! How can he fight? He's in the saddle!"

I had to do three times what anybody else did. If I so much as took a deep breathe: "The kid's in the saddle!"

Izzy Blank died a few years ago…still unsung -- a funny, dear man that was my professor at the University of Eighth Ave.

 

what do you know about joey abrams JG ??

 

Joey Abrams doesn't ring a bell, t. Was he a fighter, trainer, or relation of Georgie Abrams?

 

jg, A great piece of nostalgia you wrote ! I, being there so often must have seen Izzy Blank..There were so many visual characters floating around in Stillmans Gym...So many...Freddie Brown with a cigar cemented
in his mouth..Whitey Bimstein,baldish and pink faced, but Lou Stillman
perched on his high stool by ring 1, barking orders at everyone, with a
frown on his face, took the cake...The Deli counter in the back that
seved sandwiches, guaranteed to give you heartburn or worse...
Ah jg, the good old days.......b.b.

 

true, i guess we'll never know how good a trainer Gaisford was. Ray made clear that he didnt need him though. Be fired him but let him come back. I doubt he was great but he had all the answers for Ray for sure, even after Ray was not putting his best into it, he still asked loads of Q's and George answered.

One story comes to mind, when Ray used to go in the gyms, he was very loud and chatty, never trained to he was kicked out by the manager there. When he first went to Gainsford's gym, Gainsford said Ray was "right-hand crazy", he couldn't use his left, so George tied up his right and that taught Ray to use his left, so George probably had the info on how to teach the fundamentals but I'm sure Ray just did most of it on his own.

Nick, I'm curious where did you hear that Ray practiced for hours on end to hone his skills? I've always imagined him just being natrually good and dint pay too much attention to it because he was just that good.

 

Yes N, these fulltime trainers who were there at Stillmans every day,except when they were with their charges for an out of town bout.
Other trainers would help out by keeping an eye on the out of town
trainers fighters at Stillman's..They also be in the corner, if their comrade's fighter was fighting in the New York Area...
One hand washes another, holds true...b.b.

 

Oh so he was old? I really hate that excuse. Almost as much as "It wasn't his natural weight". Jersey Joe Walcott, Archie Moore, Bernard Hopkins and even Glen Johnson. Have shown if you keep your body in shape age is just a number.
He was still an elite level boxer and at the time better than the guys who beat him up to as far as 1960. Give or take a year.
With all the complaints about boxers like Roy Jones ruining his legacy by fighting too long. Robinson gets a free pass. If Robinson was held to the same standard as everyone else he should have retired after he lost to Denny Moyer in 1962. He would have finished

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. Sure he has 26 more wins but are any of them resume builders? He also had 9 loses and 3 draws. all them he would have beat at his best.
In terms of talent. There is only one boxer who i think was better. Benny Leonard, and I can count on my hand the number I think could be equal. You might be able to cut a finger or two off. There however too many holes in his resume to rank him #1 overall. There are holes in Leonard's resume as well. In my opinion they are not as big.

 

Julio C. Chavez & Duran had up near 100 fights each.