Can Wlad Klitschko beat a lot of old school greats?

The difference is, Joe Louis was 16 for his first amature bout. He was 20 for his first professional bout, Dempsey was 19 for his first pro fight. Jack was 21 when he was knocked down 9 times by a below-average middleweight in Sudenberg, when Louis was destroying the likes of Carnera, Baer and Sharkey!

 

Try 15.

 

A very honest and well thought out post.

 

Boxrec lists his first fight in 1914, and he was born in 1895.



If you're gonna bring up that he had unregistred fights before that, then in fact he DID have a 4 year amature career and the 9 knockdowns by a middleweight look even worse.


The advantage of being Joe Louis and having management is that you won't be thrown in with good fighters early on. Or well, actually Louis was thrown in against top opponents very early, but many other managed fighters weren't.

But the disadvantage is that because every eye is on you, every bad thing will be noticed and out there for the world to know. If Louis got knocked down by a middleweight all the time then we wouldn't hear the end of it. In Dempsey's case, it is conveniently hidden where 90% of the people who have him in their top10 don't even know about it.

 

people know about it. But it happened very early. If anything it was because of his lack of experienmce and management. Louis had a great trainer, a proper amateur carrier and afterwards he turned pro. Dempsey was himself a little middleweight at the time. How many times was he knocked down afterwards? If he had such a suspect chin, why didn't anybody ever score more then 2 knockdowns vs him later on? To count the Sudenberg knockdowns is a joke. And in the no-neutral corner rule, you could take a 9 count but as soon as ur up, you'll be hit again. Louis probably would have suffered more knockdowns if he fought under the rule. Besides Louis did not have to go through the conditions Dempsey did.

P.S unlike some Dempsey showed he could get off the floor and last the distance :good

and during their best years Dempsey was knocked down less often then Louis.

 

That's because Dempsey fought a lot easier competition. And yeah, it's really impressive to be knocked down 9 times by a sub-mediocre middleweight to prove that you can get off the floor to win... if Tyson was knocked down 9 times by Tony Sibson (who is lightyears ahead of Johnny Sudenberg) but got up to win, that would improve his legacy too?


It is not a joke to include the Sudenberg knockdowns. Dempsey was something like 20 fights into his pro career and had an extended 'amature 'career in his own way. When Louis was 19 he was fighting tough opposition too. When Tyson was 19 he was fighting better opponents than Sudenberg. Ali got knocked down by Banks and Cooper early in his career with less than 20 fights under his belt at a similar age. Certainly everyone mentiones these things to detract from their accomplishments. If Louis was knocked down 9 times by Biff Bennet and Bennet was a middleweight we wouldn't hear the end of it. Why should Dempsey get a free pass?

 

because the likes of Ali, Louis, Tyson etc had proper management and training, that's why. None of the fighters u mentioned had to go through these conditions. Dempsey had to keep learning by fighting and this was the start of his carrier when he had not even grown into his natural weight yet. He was like the same size as Sudenberg

 

I already told you that Ali's and Louis' first 20 opponents were much better than Dempsey's opponents.

How about you do this: look up Dempsey's pro fights and tell me when was the first time he fought a dangerous fighter. Louis fought a 13-0 guy in his 4th pro fight, followed by a 50 fight veteran and two 16-1 and 17-1 guys. I don't see how this is managed or being protected. Dempsey faced local , weak opponents.

 

they had top trainers. Dempsey had to learn by fighting under tough conditions. And no one ever knocked him down more then twice after he reached his prime

 

If you consider Dempsey only in his prime, or from 1918 to 1927, when he was 23 to 32, he was knocked down three times. Louis at the same age, 23 to 32, from 1937 to 1946, suffered only three flash knockdowns. Of the two, Dempsey was certainly hurt more by Firpo than anyone hurt Louis. It still seems to me they are on the same plane. Anyone who has Dempsey ahead does so by considering Louis' entire career while giving Dempsey a pass (mainly legitimate) on his early years, but this is still a double standard.

 

i can agree with this. I think they are about even (keeping in mind Louis was in trouble vs B Baer and probably just as hurt as Dempsey vs Fripo). I do not count Louis's late years nor Dempsey's early years. If you count from when Dempsey in 1918-27, only one to hurt him was Fripo and then a kd vs Tunney only for a few sec. Louis was floored from 37-46 by Braddock, Galenteno and B Baer. So this is a more accurate comparision

 

Wlad would kill Holyfield. He is too slow and a sitting duck for Wlad.

I would still like this fight to happen, just so I would not have to be subjected to seeing him in a boxing ring ever again.

 

As if the size of arms mean anything in boxingatsch