Can You Imagine The Beating Holyfield, Moving Up Gives Joshua!?

Holyfield isn't stopping Joshua early, that's just overrating Holyfield at this point.

Holyfield got rocked and hurt by the likes of Cooper, Stewart, Dokes, are Stewart and Cooper better than Joshua ? Stewart was quite slow and a plodder. And he still landed often on Holyfield and hurt him badly in the 5th, I don't think it's quite as clear cut as your saying. Lesser fighters than Joshua badly hurt Holyfield and gave him tough fight.

The early Heavyweight version of Holyfield, often got in wars and was hit often. It was his undoing against the bigger Bowe, who weighs slightly less than Joshua and doesn't hit quite as hard, although to be fair a prime Bowe is better than Joshua but the size difference still counts.

Now saying all that I still think Holyfield wins, but it's not quite the blowout your making out to be. Before Holyfield fought Bowe he was criticised for struggling against old age pensioners Foreman, Holmes, and journeyman fighters like Cooper. It's not like Holyfield was dominating and knocking everyone out left right and centre, he actually looked a bit vulnerable in his early days as a Heavyweight. And a 6'5 puncher like Joshua would be a tough challenge for him.

 

people should watch again & see his box skills & feet work in this actual fight.
this is too much for AJ

i have it stamped on the time correct

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Holyfield's main problem was always that he would talk about angles, traps and boxing his opponent, then he would get hit and start a brawl. Holyfield would wing six, seven, eight punches back and if he tried that in front of AJ he would get hit.

Maybe HGH Evan Fields out slugs AJ, maybe he doesn't but it's not a given Holyfield beats AJ, who has quick hands for a man his size.

 

AJ never KO stop any boxer elite or good and young.
only the very old mans & nobodies & second class not world class.
best stopped opponents was age 41 and 39.

Holyfield fight about 20 years past peak & is only stop twice in official career (not include Belfort at age 58!), age of 33 with against Riddick Bowe (twice tough distance war fights with Bowe before this) & age of total washed 41 years older with Lights Out Toney (very & very past best) . both better skill talents than AJ too

Mike Tyson (x2), Lennox Lewis (x2), Ray Mercer, George Foreman, Michael Moorer (x2) .... can not stop Holyfield. They tried
& Bowe need 32 round to get Holyfield out. yes 32 rounds

so how can AJ win?
he cannot. it is too much task

 

I have to say one thing: the verdict is still out on AJ's chin. Holy had a sturdy beard, but AJ might only be average at best. We haven't seen him get hit that much. Maybe there's glass under there. If that's the case then Holy's chances would go up.

 

I'm sure people would have said the same about Ruiz Jr in 2019.

A close-range fight with a fairly ordinary heavyweight, who saw his chance and took it, was enough to leave Joshua clueless and battered.

Holyfield is somewhat ahead of Ruiz Jr - in every way, other than weight.

Sure, Holyfield had his difficult moments in fights, which have since been turned, by some, into monumental markers against Holyfield's heavyweight prowess, but the fact is Prime Holyfield won those fights - all inside the distance. Joshua hasn't faced anything like the machine that was Holyfield (not even having fought Usyk - certainly not in terms of style and approach to a fight).

So, yes - to me - it is clear cut.

Holyfield had a tendency to get into wars because he excelled at and won almost all of them.
The strength of this point you make here is lessened by bringing Holyfield/Bowe I into the conversation.
Bowe was levels above Joshua, with a superior armory; so much better at mid-to-close-range war, with a near-indestructible chin.
Joshua, in that type of a fight, lasts no time at all; his size is not enough to bridge the gap in class, here.

How old was Wlad Klitschko when Joshua fought him?

Until Holyfield met Foreman, he had stopped every Heavyweight he'd faced to that point. Foreman was only ever stopped once in a 80+ fight career (by Ali). Holmes was only ever stopped once in a 75-fight career (by Mike Tyson).

There are levels in this sport and Joshua doesn't operate in the sphere that you are using as comparison. Yes, he has size and he has power, but he lacks the versatility and ring-IQ to ever reach those kinds of heights.

Once Holyfield switched on that warrior mode and applied the pressure we know he can, Joshua would be instantly out of his depth, in my opinion. It would be rapidly downhill for him from there, snowballing towards the inevitable stoppage loss.

 

I think mostly everyone here has favoured Holyfield, i don't think picking Holyfield is a wrong opinion. I said myself i favoured Holyfield although not a certainty by any means. But to say Holyfield wins by a blow out or by early KO is a stretch and overrating Holyfield.

You keep saying Joshua isn't on Holyfield's level, but i've already stated Cooper, Stewart, gave Holyfield tough fights and Cooper almost knocked him out, Joshua is a level above Stewart and Cooper. Yes as you rightly say Holyfield won these fights, but had Joshua almost been knocked out by lets say Chisora, who i'd say is similar level to Cooper. Would you gloss over that aswell by saying "well Joshua won that fight".

Joshua is a big strong hard hitting Heavyweight, and if Holyfield decided to trade with the bigger Joshua he could get himself in serious trouble, and i don't think that's an outlandish opinion, considering lesser fighters hurt Holyfield when Holyfield slugged it out with them.

As for Ruiz do you know Holyfield himself said Ruiz had the fastest handspeed, he'd ever seen when he sparred him ? his words not mine. I think Ruiz is a bit better than ordinary, he has talent very quick hands and puts punches together very well and also has a solid chin. Yes he's fat and lazy like alot of the 80's Heavyweight's were, but the man has talent no doubt about it, unfortunately he just don't dedicate himself which is a shame.

As for Foreman/Holmes i'm just telling you what public perception was at the time, Holyfield was considered undersized and hadn't really proved himself against the best. He looked less than stellar against two older fighters in Holmes, Foreman, and was almost knocked out by a journeyman in Cooper. Holyfield had a beat a ridiculously fat lazy uninterested Buster Douglas, and had feasted on shot fighters like Pinklon Thomas, James Tillis, his performances at Heavyweight at that time were not really setting the world alight. Of course when Holyfield had his terrific battles against Bowe he changed public's opinion, but before that Holyfield's performance were so and so.

And basically that's my point this thread is on about if Holyfield, had just moved up from Cruiserweight to fight Joshua, and during this period Holyfield had his struggles and wasn't quite the smarter fighter, he became when he fought Tyson for example.

 

It is important to be fair to both sides.

I saw them both win their medals in 2012, and it is quite pleasing that I saw them both fight for a heavyweight title.

It is quite right that Usky is riding high right now, and Joshua is riding low, but did you honestly call it before the fight took place?

If the answer is no, then perhaps a bit of humility is appropriate.

The problem with Usky, is finding his weakness.

He doesn't really have any, apart from being a small heavyweight, kinda sorta.

He is going to go into the next fight, carrying the expectations of his country, and the results are going to be scary.

Now Joshua should by no means be dismissed based on his losses.

When he beat Wlad, he was really mean, and really hungry.

He was confident enough in his ability, to repeatedly match Ring top ten guys, when Wilder was looking for soft picks.

I think that he got too much too soon, and turned soft from the inside.

I think that Holyfield beats any version of Joshua, but it could have been one hell of a fight, at the right time!

 

One thing: Holyfield took it easy on Holmes. He barely left 2nd gear even after that nasty cut courtesy of a Holmes elbow.

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Holyfield was sparring, in the main.

 

It's not a "stretch" to suggest Holyfield could deal with Joshua quickly. It's an opinion, just like yours is.

The evidence you are using to support your opinion, i.e., the three opponents you cite as demonstrating Holyfield's early struggles as a heavyweight (despite him knocking all three of them out) fails to consider that each of them could punch - especially Cooper - and each of their relative successes happened at close-quarters; a range at which I believe Joshua to be weak.

Perhaps more important, is that you seem not to realize that this type of evidence you are putting forward, along with pointing out that Joshua is a "big strong hard hitting Heavyweight" is more suited to supporting an argument for Joshua having a puncher's chance against the warrior mentality of Holyfield. Holyfield being susceptible, which is what you seem to be suggesting, is a fair point to make, but it doesn't address Joshua's own offensive and defensive failings; his demonstrable confusion and complete breakdown under fire, against a fast-handed opponent, who was prepared to bring it and take it to him up close.

On Ruiz Jr and Holyfield - You do know that Holyfield's comments re Ruiz Jr referred to a sparring session between them, when Holyfield was 46 years old? Either way, it's besides the point, because Ruiz is not in Holyfield's league and never will be.

You refer to my pointing out that Holyfield beat the men you say he struggled against, as 'glossing over' the blips he encountered (and, in all honesty, the Cooper fight is the only moment of the three worth mentioning), but, at the same time, you seem unwilling to accept that Joshua's loss to Ruiz Jr was not only a worse outcome, but also a more relevant piece of evidence, in terms of how Joshua would find Holyfield a difficult prospect, from the outset.


Additionally, I was quite aware of the perceptions of Holyfield, during his first reign. However, it doesn't change the fact that he beat both Foreman and Holmes - and, over time, in retrospect, those wins have gained Holyfield kudos. Foreman went on to punctuate his class, even at an advanced age, years after his bout with Holyfield, by becoming a unified champ. Holmes had already demonstrated he could compete at the top level, by beating Mercer. Neither man was stopped in the 90s and had each only been stopped once in their entire careers. Holyfield going the distance with them both seems a likely outcome, does it not?

Joshua had his own struggle against old man Wlad K, in his last hurrah, at age 41, didn't he? Much more drama in the Joshua/Wlad tussle I thought. AJ having to pull a rabbit out of the hat, at the 11th hour, to secure victory in a fight that was still in the balance.

I'd say these aspects of their respective careers are immaterial, to be fair. But they could be considered as indicators of what I have been saying all along and will stand by... ...There are levels and Joshua just isn't quite up there on the upper tiers. He hasn't even beaten the best of his own generation, let alone proven himself capable of coping with all-time greats, such as Holyfield.

Puncher's chance, maybe. But - more likely - Joshua finds himself on the wrong end of a shoeing.



PS - Best-for-Best, I'd bet on Smokin' Bert Cooper to absolutely hammer Chisora.

 

I think AJ might last six rounds. I doubt Holy would give him enough time or room to land solidly. AJ would get overwhelmed. Wilder too.

Fury would have been more interesting, but I don't see him winning over the Bowe I Holy.

 

No offense, but I thought Holmes was ahead after 6.

 

None taken. I think Holyfield could have KOed him. But Holyfield isn't a front runner, like, say, Tyson.. whom Holyfield did KO.

 

If Holyfield moves around and uses quick counters he’d win clearly, might even get a late stoppage. The problem here is there’s a 50% chance Holyfield would slug it out, and everyone seems to forget how dangerous AJ is offensively

 

Great point about the “warrior” in Holyfield sometimes going against his better judgment and compromising due deference to his all round skill set.

However as it pertains to his clashes with Bowe, it’s arguable that Bowe negated his own advantages in height and reach even more than Evander butted up against his own strengths. Riddick himself had no business allowing himself to get hit the way he did in a number of fights.

Usyk did a number on AJ. A clear win. Perhaps made it look somewhat easy - but therein lies the “trick” behind such performances. Brilliant focus and strict adherence to well thought out strategy doesn’t always scream the difficulty in and discipline required for execution.

Holyfield likely dismantles AJ in similar fashion but I wouldn’t preclude potential rock’n’ and reel’n’ moments for Evander if AJ manages some solid connections but in equal balance, due to Evander planting himself more (than Usyk) Holy gets the stoppage around rounds 8 or 9.