Can you justify putting Floyd Mayweather Jr in a top 10 ATG list?

Manny wasn't in his prime (remember, the fight had been mooted for 5 years until it happened).

Gernaro is no ATG.

You do know that ATG are ABOVE HOF'ers, don't you?

 

Yes, probably. I don't think it matters, the "consensus best fighter". It's not a fact at all. I see other fighters completely dominating their weight classes too, this year. Mayweather is merely the most famous and highest earning.

Wrong.
I've mentioned it often that "currently pound for pound" is impossible to rank, not just something I've come up with to suit this argument. It makes little sense.
It's a recent phenomenon. In the past no one took those p4p rankings lists too seriously.
The fact is "world titles" have become so thoroughly devalued, hard to follow and lightly regarded by "star fighters" than "pound for pound" rankings have become a bigger selling point.

That implies it's not a "current ranking" at all, and based on career accomplishments, which means that maintaining the ranking for years doesn't necessarily mean you've been that great more recently. It contradicts itself.

It does a lot for Floyd.
I haven't seen anyone of this thread say otherwise.
He's clearly great.
He's not top 10 of all-time.

Actually, Ali's win over Frazier in 1975 doesn't do an awful lot for Ali on pure resume terms. Ali was expected to win, and a lot easier than that, which made sense because Frazier was at the end of the road and Ali maybe had a few fights left in him. But it was a genuine "war". That's why it is revered to this day.

Hagler was in a "lose-lose" situation against Leonard in 1987 in terms of value in beating him. Leonard wasn't a ranked middleweight.
I actually thought Hagler edged it, but Leonard deserves the credit for doing what he did, coming off a layoff and fighting the middleweight champion.

Pacquiao is a genuine contender at welterweight. Not the great fighter he used to be. Mayweather beat him. It's a win over a ranked fighter.

It's arguable. The fight looked fake to me. I don't know what we're supposed to make of fake fights.

Earnings mean nothing. But if men are making hundreds of millions for a fight - win, lose or draw - and engage in a bit of light sparring in plain view, I question the sporting value and legitimacy of the contest.

 

I agree about Klitschko.

Ray Leonard is also one of my favorite fighters to watch. I rate him among the very best ever ... even though his career was shorter than most. He had it all. Speed. Power. Accuracy. A solid chin. Always exciting. I'm not trying to insult him in previous posts. I've met him and spent some time with him. He's a very nice guy and an all-time great.

On the other hand, I don't really enjoy watching Mayweather fight at all. I rarely watch any of his bouts more than once. He's too defensive for me. I despise his persona -whether it's real or not.

I didn't like watching Pernell Whitaker fight, either. To me, most of his fights were boring as hell.

But just because I didn't enjoy watching them fight didn't mean they weren't masters at what they did.

Every guy Mayweather fights ends up losing in basically the same manner. Floyd hits hard enough to keep them off. His defense is something most can't cope with. His speed seems to catch them all off guard. He doesn't run, but he's rarely hit flush.

He's great - in the ring - at so many things, no matter how talented his opponent is ... it's really something.

I understand why people run him down and why they try to nitpick at his opponents because everyone he beat wasn't exactly in their prime at that very moment he beat them ... as if Floyd has always fought in his prime when he faced them.

I did the same thing when guys I couldn't stand watching years ago became greats. But those who nitpick like that just come off as idiots.

Floyd Mayweather, right now, is an all-time great fighter.

That said, it's difficult choose where he should be positioned all-time while he's still active.

Guys can really tarnish their legacy if they stick around too long.

I remember when Holyfield, after beating Tyson twice and stopping Moorer, was rated by Ring (I believe) as the third-greatest heavyweight of all time. Only Ali and Louis were rated higher.

Then Evander lost to Donald, Toney, Valuev, Ibragimov, Ruiz, Byrd and on and on ... and he's not considered that fighter anymore.

Same with Roy Jones. The historian Joe Rein's name kept coming up the other day. I remember Rein saying on another board - after Roy Jones beat John Ruiz - that Jones was only behind Ray Robinson as the best boxer pound-for-pound ever ... and Rein said Jones might even be better than Robinson.

Then Jones lost to Tarver and Glen Johnson and lost to Tarver again and to Hopkins and Green and on and on ... and nobody rates Jones that highly anymore.

On the other hand, some guys close strong against some names - like Calzaghe or Lennox Lewis - and really raise their standing.

Mayweather's legacy isn't complete yet. We'll know more when he and his name opponents are all retired. But, at this point, he's an all-timer to me.

Top 10 all-timer ... right now ... probably yes. We'll know more in about 10 years. If Floyd and most of the guys he beat are retired in 10 years, the answer is probably yes.

If Floyd is still fighting in 10 years, he'll have probably crashed hard and burned and have a lot of bad losses on his resume. That would drop him down.

You never know until their careers are officially over.

 

Good post.

De La hoya
Mosley
Cotto
Marquez
Pacqiauo
Maybe Hatton at a stretch, are all future hall of famers.

Id go as far to say, his resume is better than both Calzaghes and Marcianos.

Floyd is definitely one of the best ever. I think his attitude migy put people off, but there is no denying his greatness.

 

And yes Floyd would beat the **** out of Duran, i totally believe this.

 

De La Hoya is already a Hall of Famer. So is Genaro Hernadez and Arturo Gatti. Pacquiao and Marquez will get in. Cotto and Alvarez are on the right path.

That's seven.

Hatton's possible. Corrales and Castillo are as well, based on their careers and fights with one another.

Mayweather beat all three of them.

If they all got in, that's 10 Hall of Famers Mayweather defeated.

And we still have to see who he fights to end his career. Who knows, that guy or guys could get in, too.

Mosley, the more he fights, seems to get further away from the Hall.

 

Especially if Duran had to go (like he did in New Orleans). Then he'd really beat it out of him.

 

I'm fine with him making top 10. And dismissing p4p ratings, unconfirmed allegations of fixed fights, and individual perceptions of fans not getting their money's worth aren't deterrents for me. Anyone can sit in an office chair and tear any fighter's resume to pieces.. I've done it and it doesn't take much. Floyd Mayweather is a former olympian. Won his first title with only 17 pro bouts. He's a five division champion.. Unbeaten 48-0. Arguably one of the best defensive fighters of all time. 25-0 in world title fights. 23-0 against past or current world titlists. Has wins over a handful of HOF fighters.. And at 39 is still holding on to that "0" at an age when most men were either washed up or retired.. That's enough for me and an honest person would be hard pressed to list more than perhaps a few boxers who should be fairly rated above him.... Have a nice afternoon..

 

Floyd would frustrate and outbox Duran who would run out of the ring dying for a poo.

Frustration is the perfect foil for the overly aggressive fighters.

 

I could be mistaken but isn't Gatti in the hall of fame too?

That would be 11 hall of famers.

The only fight missing from Floyds resume is the Martinez fight for the MW title, that would have looked great, unfortunately it didn't happen.

Margarito would not have enhanced his record in any way.

There is no one else out there for Floyd, unless he goes for Brook or Thurman who then go on to have great careers.

 

I don't think anyone is tearing his resume to pieces.
He's fought some of the best around in his entire era, and that's a lengthy era. He's never lost. He's in the conversation of all-time greats.
I just don't see him anywhere near the top 10.

 

Fair enough.

 

A lot of this I agree with.

I do believe Holyfield and Jones Jr, get lowballed because they hung around too long. At heavyweight, I think #3 a bit too high for Holyfield probably, but I rate Holyfield above Lewis and I see a lot of people have Lewis as high as #3.
Jones Jr, is not a top 10 all-time great pound-for-pound, but he's probably as great as Mayweather or better, or near enough.

The problem modern fighters have is the fact that the old-timer greats just did too much goddamn work that puts them far in front. Their resumes are completely insane. The heavyweight division is the exception, where arguably the likes of Louis and Ali can be challenged and surpassed. But down through the divisions it is just insane. Mayweather's 48 fights in 18 years just isn't going to cut it.

 

Yeah, and it shows that HOF is not correlated to quality or ability.