Canelo Alvarez v Jack Sharkey

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Seamus, Jan 14, 2022.

Alvarez v Sharkey

  1. Sharkey by Dec

    13 vote(s)
    41.9%
  2. Sharkey by KO (hahahahahaha)

    5 vote(s)
    16.1%
  3. Canelo by KO

    10 vote(s)
    32.3%
  4. Canelo by Dec

    3 vote(s)
    9.7%
  1. 70sFan865

    70sFan865 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I don't get this whole talk about Kovalev. He was significantly bigger fighter than Canelo.

    If we judge fighters based on their biggest victims, then Sharkey beat plenty of modern-sized HWs in his career.
     
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  2. janitor

    janitor Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    He could probably have had some action at super middle if he had wanted.

    Trying not to fixate!
     
  3. janitor

    janitor Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    The key concept for me is precedent.

    Jack Sharkey beat an elite fighter the size of Vitally Klitschko, so you might be able to back him up a bit more firmly against Vitally Klitschko, than you would say Rocky Marciano, who did not beat an elite fighter that size.

    A man like that obviously isn't his kryptonite.

    Canelo never beat an elite fighter the size of Jack Sharkey.

    That doesn't mean that he couldn't, it just means that he hasn't proved it yet.

    Beating Kovalev might be an argument that he would be a threat to Tommy Loughran, if Kovalev had been in his prime at the time.

    Not taking anything away for Canelo, he is absolutely storming the fortress right now.

    I would love to see him prove me wrong!

    McGrain asked me why I consider a weight difference important in some cases, but not in others, and that is your answer.

    Precedent!
     
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  4. janitor

    janitor Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    You might perhaps want to look at what Canelo weighed at the same respective ages, or indeed somebody like Holyfield or Usky.
     
  5. Cojimar 1946

    Cojimar 1946 Active Member Full Member

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    The version of Sharkey in question though is the prime version. If we use the Sharkey from the Wills or Stribling fight we are using a prime Sharkey
     
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  6. janitor

    janitor Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Are we?
     
  7. janitor

    janitor Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Might I respectfully suggest, that we look at what people were actually eating at the time?

    My Grandad grew up in a mining community, in the 1930s.

    His family were basically surviving, by stealing cabbages out of fields.

    He told me that he has more food during the war, under the rationing system, than he had back in his mining village.

    I suspect that Tommy Farr's diet was not much better, until he got his hands on some money.

    Might I respectfully suggest, that modern fighters might have come in a bit lower, had they lived in that environment?
     
  8. Gazelle Punch

    Gazelle Punch Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I think part of the problem is that no one takes into consideration is that fighters pre 70s trained down. They may have weighed twenty to forty pounds heavier before training and were naturally big. Then some think they can go ahead and lose an additional ten fifteen poinds then another twenty in water weight. I don’t think it’s that realistic in all cases (some for sure). For past heavy weights that is. I don’t disagree many would benefit from dropping to LHW even SMW or cruiser. But many trained their butts off to be as light as possible already to then train down further you certainly may not have the same fighter. Had they used weights and PEDs they may have weighed a lot more then they were. Like Byrd Povetkin Rahman or Holyfield or Ruiz. I think if they weighed 195-180 in the past some would say they would be lighter weighted fighters today. Those men in the 70s down don’t weigh what they weighed. They aren’t near 220 range. More like 180-200 range. Plus the big boys make more money. If they could make heavy and make more and have the prestige of HW champ I think they’d go for it.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2022
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  9. janitor

    janitor Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I find it truly shocking that the poll is close.

    This should ne a no brainer!
     
  10. Cojimar 1946

    Cojimar 1946 Active Member Full Member

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    I think Sharkey was clearly prime in 1928 and 1929.

    In addition to Kovalev, I would classify Callum Smith and Caleb Plant as reasonably formidable opponents who were approximately the same size as Jack Sharkey and both seem to have been prime when they fought Alvarez. Both were likely within 10 pounds of what Sharkey weighed at fight time.
     
  11. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven Obsessed with Boxing banned Full Member

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    Sharkey was 196 against Dempsey, I think.
    And he looked quite lean. He's definitely "not heavyweight" by modern definition.
     
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  12. janitor

    janitor Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    As said previously, Sharkey was 24 at the time of the Wills fight.

    By that logic you could argue that Callum Smith or Sergei Kovalev were about the same size as Evander Holyfield.

    I don't see anybody rushing to make that argument.
     
  13. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Who claimed that someone claimed that Armstrong would bulk up to welterweight in his first fight??
     
  14. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    They did indeed, a little, and with great variance.

    But I've been through the differences far too often on this forum to do it again. Suffice to say it makes little difference to these type of calculations.

    If you mean today, this is not true.

    The biggest earners in boxing haven't been heavies since Lewis-Tyson.

    People repeat this constantly on here, but it's wrong.

    What is true is that a fighter who is not making money at CW can sometimes get a kick up the ladder at HW. That can happen. But it's only where careers or styles go wrong that it's really the case. Average earnings at HW are higher, but the idea that the big bucks that comes with the "prestige of HW champ" is all-consuming is wrong and has been for the most part since Oscar de la Hoya.
     
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  15. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    I think that this is not really what's relevant.

    What's relevant is that every time you and I discuss this, your fighter is going to be fighting at the bigger weight. You always want to argue forcefully for whomever to be fighting at the same weight they fought in their own era. This is consistent despite all the data to the contrary with a perma-fixation on the exception rather than the rule to allow you to continue to claim it may be the case.

    It will always, always boil down to the same thing.

    Yes, there is a chance. It's all career-dependent. What's true, and what you seem unable to grasp, is that fighters almost always want a strap and almost always chase that strap at the lowest possible weight that they can muster. Almsot every other fighter is doing the same.

    Getting into specifics: Sharkey, aged 24, could clearly lose weight by modern standards while weighing around the same weight Kovalev came to the ring at:

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    That is surely beyond reasonable dispute. I'm not going to go through the detail of what a modern fighter can absolutely comfortably look on the scale, but it's nothing like that. To be clear, this is without "looking like a concentration camp victim". This is without "sawing his leg off". This is without "hurting himself so badly he wouldn't be able to perform." Just normal, normal for modern weight-making and science.

    I absolutely concede that it is possible Sharkey would be a part of a tiny minority who, for whatever bizarre reason of body mechanics may not be able to lose this weight. I absolutely concede that he may hate exchanging baked potatoes for green salads so much that he might decide to be one of the minuscule minority that try to gain rather than lose weight. But the overwhelming likelihood is that neither of these things are true.

    Now, assuming we all agree Sharkey is good enough to establish a career and win a strap at 175lbs today, what is his next move? Let's look at all the lineal light-heavyweights of the century to see how they handled it.

    1997-2003 Dariusz Michalczewski. Slightly taller than Jack, fought one fight at CW weighing 180lbs.
    2003-2004 Julio Cesar Gonzalez. Much taller and longer than Jack, fought three fights at CW, lost two, one a single 8 rounder.189lbs roof.
    2004-2009 Zsolt Erdei. Smaller than Jack. No cruiserweight fights.
    2010-2011 Jean Pascal. Smaller than jack. A couple of over-the-weight matches (181lbs).
    2011-2012 Beranrd Hopkins. Taller and longer than Jack. No CW matches.
    2012-2013 Adonis Stevenson. Smaller than Jack. No CW matches.
    2018-2019 Oleksandr Gvozdyk. Taller and longer than Jack. No CW matches.
    2019- Artur Beterbiev. The same size as Jack. No CW matches.

    So, would Sharkey storm the barricades at CW and HW? First, let me say that with discipline and a title to defend, I dont' think Sharkey has any problems making the 175lbs weight limit throughout his career. Controlled body development is a part of the sport and even guy like Ricky Hatton can train for it but most fighters also eat for it. But anything can happen. Maybe he's a failure who sees an opportunity at CW; maybe he gets beat for his title and in a rematch and sees CW as the only viable option. Maybe he turns into a p4p great and HW seems a reasonable proposition. Who knows?

    But on balance the most likely thing that would occur is that like these men, his absolute peers in size and shape, he remains, for the most part, at 175lbs.

    Nobody knows the answer though. Nobody knows enough about Sharkey's bone-density, proclivities, strengths and weaknesses, discipline under weight-making or what his relationship would be with his trainers to say absolutely what would occur. What we can say though, is that men his size rarely do much at cruiserweight and almost universally do nothing at HW in this century.