Carnera - Legit Champ or Circus freak?

Glad to hear that. I though i read that when his boxing career was over, he was dropped like a brick by his promotors/supporters and left with bad health, no money and barely speaking the language.

 

Sounds a lot like Mike Tyson including the part about barely speaking the language.

 

Not really, Tyson has himself to blame.

 

He was certainly droped like a brick by his sheister promotors but he had a career as a profesional wrestler where he actualy made a lot more money than he did boxing due to honest managment.

He also went into acting staring in a number of films and established a sucesfull ice cream franchise. He also went on to found a childrens charity.

 

It's a fact that he was hospitalized with influenza, and got out of his bed to ill-advisedly face Primo on February 10, 1933, insisting to his manager that a contract was a contract. The autopsy confirmed that the Baer fight had no connection whatsoever to his death, only flu induced swelling of his brain. The February 27, 1933 issue of Time Magazine discussed the influenza Shaaf was afflicted with the previous month. Thus, Ernie's compromised ability to evade Carnera's blows resulted in his sustaining tremendous punishment over 13 rounds. It had been six months since Shaaf shared the ring with Baer, and he'd competed a total of 22 rounds in three fights since (winning the New England HW Title by knockout in the process).

Carnera bounced right up after his knockdowns at the hands of Baer, and sustained a fractured ankle in getting dropped the first time, by what may have been the hardest single punch Baer ever delivered. (Preem was hospitalized after the fight, with his leg in a cast, and Baer was photographed visiting Primo in his hospital room the next day, both smiling and clowning for the camera.) Primo's multiple knockdowns after the first one were more a manifestation of his fracture than a questionable chin. As hard as Baer hit, Carnera was not ever separated from his senses as Patterson was against Johansson and Liston. If his leg had not sustained a fracture which caused it to swell to twice it's normal size, Primo would have at least gone the distance with Baer. He won most of the rounds in which he wasn't floored, moving in to score short, quick combinations between Baer's looping shots.

Ultimately, Primo would do better against Louis than a peak Maxie was able to do (or Galento, Sharkey, Uzcudun or John Henry Lewis). Unlike the Larruper, Preem didn't lose to Paulino, Shaaf (who beat the crap out of Maxie in their 1930 fight, albeit a version of Baer reeling from the outcome of the Campbell tragedy), or Loughran.

Just how "chinny" was Carnera in his prime? When we write off the last ten knockdowns he sustained against Baer as the result of a broken ankle, we have the fourth round left hook bomb which Sharkly dropped him with in their 1931 bout, a punch which Primo immediately rose up from before shrewdly going back down to one knee for taking the benefit of a full count, the first massive right hand Baer dropped him with, which Carnera again got up from instantly, despite his fractured ankle, and the three sixth round knockdowns a deadly young Joe Louis inflicted on him, but none of which kept Primo down for the count. He was on his feet when Arthur Donovan decided to stop it. That's more than several of the Bomber's victims can say. After losing to Louis, Carnera had been dropped a total of five times in 90 bouts, of those knockdowns where a fractured ankle was clearly not a factor. The powerful George Godfrey failed to drop him after a five round pummeling and had to resort to fouling in frustration, which got him disqualified. (Godfrey had a penchant for delivering cup-denting low blows. With eight DQ losses, he puts Golota to shame.)

Primo's knockout of Sharkey is clearly legitimate. As the Gob is trying to get away from him, Preem pivots his right foot towards Sharkey, and drives straight up with the uppercut which takes him out.

Sharkey was floored five times in his first bout with Jimmy Maloney, nearly dropped by little Mickey Walker, and decked in the initial round of his first match after losing to Carnera, against King Levinski who decisioned Sharkey over ten rounds. (In two attempts over the ten round distance, Levinski was not able to floor Primo, losing both fights to Carnera.) Given Sharkey's own record of getting dropped, it's hardly a stretch to expect Primo could legitimately knock him out.

In Carnera's entire 103 fight career, no referee ever counted ten over his prostrate form, making Primo one of the very few heavyweights with over 100 matches to never have a full count tolled over him. (Ignore boxwreck's classification of the first Mussina bout as a "KO." The referee stopped it after Carnera had gotten up for the third time, when he was pushing 40.) Like Floyd Patterson, Primo always got up. Unlike Floyd, he also always beat the count.

Size alone was not responsible for Carnera's success, as he handily defeated Ray Impelletiere and Victor Campolo, two of the only heavyweights of his era who were bigger than he was. He was tough enough to decision Jimmy Maloney with a fractured rib (avenging an earlier points loss to Maloney), as well as hang in with his fractured ankle against Baer for ten rounds.

Primo was a good champion, who defended the title three times in less than a year against three legitimate contenders, rather than letting the title gather mothballs and cobwebs, as Jack Johnson, Jess Willard, Jack Dempsey, Gene Tunney, Max Baer and Jimmy Braddock did. Between Johnson in 1910 and Louis in 1938, he was the only one to defend it three times within a year, and not against sacrificial stiffs.

As big as he was, he was also conditioned well enough to wear down the much lighter and mobile Loughran over 15 rounds, and twice decision the rugged Uzcudun over the distance, taking eight of ten rounds in their first encounter.

He used his reach extremely well, something not true for all long-armed heavyweights, utilizing a pesky jab from long range. (Other tall heavyweights like Buddy Baer and Ed "Too Tall" Jones were not so proficient at jabbing from a distance.)

Yes, Primo Carnera was a legitimate champ.

 

Lets look at it systematicaly.

Primo Carnera established himself as a challenger with a fifteen fight wining streak including wins over ranked contenders Art Lasky, King Levinsky and Earnie Schaff. I have not heard it implied by any of Carneras critics that any of these fifteen bouts was fixed.

So Carnera deserved his title shot and when he defeated Sharkey it was a minor upset not a big one.

So I dont see what the problem is.

 

Impressive information from one the best posters here. Well done.

 

Well, I believe the problem has a lot to do with second hand thinking. Much of the negative baloney about Carnera came from a time when sportswriters were the gatekeepers of information about boxing. Unlike us, they didn't always have the luxury of readily viewable footage, and it probably didn't occur to them that future generations would have an opportunity to use motion pictures in the privacy of their own homes, to form their own judgements. Even so, most of us still don't have the luxury of time necessary to evaluate the available material when accessible. So it's obviously more convenient and time efficient to simply accept Paul Gallico's "Pity the Poor Giant" drivel written after the fact, as fact, rather than read what was actually written about Carnera during his championship run from a multitude of first-hand sources, and compare it against available footage. (By the way, it seems Gallico had trouble counting. Primo fell down eleven times against Baer, not thirteen, as Gallico wrote.)

If Primo Carnera was as clumsily uncoordinated and ungainly as Paul Gallico depicts him as, then how come I haven't seen any footage of him tripping over his own two huge feet, or slipping to the canvas in the leather soled boxing shoes of the day, in the footage of his two bouts with Sharkey, the one with Loughran, or Baer, or Gains, or Shaaf, or any other clips? We see the clutzy Ali slip to the deck against Frazier and Wepner (among others), in his rubber soled shoes, but I'll concede that's an unfair comparison, since we all know Ali had two left feet. (Still, it was rather funny to see Muhammad nearly fall out of the ring in the Bugner rematch before Joe saved him from taking a tumble.)

Budd Schulberg didn't help matters with 1947's, "The Harder They Fall," and Carnera's failed lawsuit against such a high profile story and movie helped to further exacerbate matters.

Additionally, as a citizen of Fascist Italy, Carnera may have been the victim of some jingoistic prejudices in the pre WW II English speaking world (much as Schmeling was).

Of course Gallico wrote his obituary of Primo in 1947, not bothering to wait for Carnera to restore himself to financial success through the cinema, and further athletic achievement as a wrestling attraction. Muckrakers and bottom feeders like Gallico have no time for stories of redemption and happy endings, such as how Primo provided for the future of his children out of having nothing left from boxing and WW II, save his name, intelligence, and championship character. (As his son, Umberto Carnera, M.D., and daughter, Giovanna Maria Carnera, M.S., can attest.) As a family man, he hardly could have done any better.

 

In the ring Carnera was an overachiever.

Some champs leave boxing with a weak hand and some with a strong hand. Carnera is definitely a man who left it with a weak hand and played it well.

As his son, Umberto Carnera, M.D., and daughter, Giovanna Maria Carnera, M.S., (and the beneficiaries of the Carnera foundation) can attest.

 

Good post, i never thought the title winning fight against Sharkey looked much like a fix and i suspect this was brought up in a time when nearly no one had access to the footage. I do find that ankle-story a bit of an excuse, though. Sometimes a guy gets hit hard and even though he gets up, he isn't able to get his senses back before the round ends. As i remember, Carnera was floored very often early in one or two rounds and often in one round late. How did he do in those rounds in between? I've only seen highlights of it.

 

Ditto! Great post from an even greater poster! Good to hear that Carnera gets the respect he deserves, I´m tired of people who only repeat what they heard (Carnera was a bum? OK, I also say this...)...

 

It´s good that you mentioned the Poreda-fight, I know about that fight and it seems that it was one of the biggest robberies ever, good that you post it here. I also agree with your post. All in all, IMO Carnera has a much worse fame than he deserves, because of the following reasons: 1: He was too big, heavy and strong, especially for that time. Everyone had the David and Goliath- syndrome, everyone wanted to see the giant losing (similar to Valuev today). 2: Political backgrounds, because of Italy´s facist scene he was a victim similar to Schmeling (only that Max got hyped because he beat Louis, the greatest HW ever at that time). 3: People thaught, because he had connections to the mob (like most elite fighters back in those days) and he was Italian, that all of his wins were fixed, and his losses were when the opponents didn´t agree with the fix or so...


But it´s cool to see that 90 % of today people (at least here at ESB) recognized that Carnera was a very good fighter, of course not great, but a good champion.

 

Carnera's record is one of the great enigmas for the boxing researcher. leon See, Carneras early manager had a falling out with Carnera's camp and produced a damning book "La mystere Carnera" . In this he lists the arranged(fixed fights) of Primo. The Sebillo, Thomas, Regirello, Islas, Nilles, Humbeeck, Thomas(2), Barrick, Nicolaieff are all claimed as fixed. The lost to Diener on a foul was genuine as was the later six round win.
Bouquillon and the two Stribling contests are claimed fixes as are all the following.Peterson, Rioux, Owens, Martin, Sigman, Erickson, Lodge, Clark(maybe) Montgomery, Wiggins, Zavita, Trafton, McAuliffe, Clisby and Christner.
The wins over Chevalier and Godfrey were classed as genuine. Affairs become more mixed after this. Bearcat Wright, McCarthy, Gross, Torriani and Gorman were the only definite arranged fights until the end of 1931 when the record ceases.
If this story of See's is correct Primo still defeated on the level several good HW's in Maloney, Campolo, Levinsky, Diener, Wiggins, Cook, Uzcuden, and Hansen. His losses to Maloney and Poreda were robberys and his good run to the title has allready been highlighted. Even after the loss to Louis he scored a good win over Neusell. In 1936 Leroy Haynes effectively ended his career.
This record added to the film evidence that he could box a bit convinces me that he deserves a reasonable rating but I would'nt give him too much credit for his title defences over faded Uzcuden and Loughran, a little credit but not too much.

 

See was a verry biter man and what he says must be taken with a grain of salt.

There is no way in hell that the Bearcat Wright fight was arranged for example.