Carnera - Legit Champ or Circus freak?

I say legit. Sure he's a B champion, but a champ nevertheless. He was a really big dude, strong and tall and a pretty good jab and more fluid than you might expect for a guy that massive and muscle bound looking. Not saying he was smooth or a cutie either, but he wasn't horrid. I saw the first Sharkey fight and Carnera put up a good fight, although a losing effort. He had a lot of fights against decent guys. I've never been much of a Sharkey fan, so can I see a guy 260 pounds landing a big uppercut to knock out a 200 pound guy without a whole lot of power (and who might have gotten the title on a gift decision against Schmeling)? Yes. I do know that guys like Max Baer, Jack Sharkey, and Max Schmeling all lasted 4 rounds or less with Joe Louis at one point or another, and that Carnera lasted 6 rounds. Anyone who can last 6 rounds with Joe Louis knows something about boxing and isn't a fraud.

 

The are several holes in See's story but I'm just relating it for information. I mean why buy Torranni off?!

 

Since my last post about Carnera on this thread, I have reviewed the entire footage of Baer/Carnera available on-line. (As rounds three and eight are not included in those clips, I've reconstructed them from memory.)

Now, bear in mind that Baer/Carnera was scored on the rounds system, with no additional points awarded for multiple knockdowns in a round. My scoring is as follows:

Round one-----Baer
Round two-----Baer
Round three--- Baer
Round four-----Carnera
Round five-----Carnera
Round six------Carnera
Round seven---Carnera
Round eight----Carnera
Round nine-----Carnera
Round ten------Baer

Entering the final round eleven, Carnera was actually leading Baer,
6-4-0 in rounds! (Carnera's lead is a fact that was also confirmed by boxwreck, to their eternal credit.)

About ten seconds before the end of round six, Primo nearly fell down as a result of his injured right ankle (this is at 1:51 on the youtube clip of that action). Nonetheless, he did far better on his bad ankle than Benitez did against Davey Moore. (Wilfred retired at the end of that round against Moore.)

With an ankle that was swollen to twice it's normal size after the bout (as noted by Time Magazine), Carnera was forced to box Baer primarily off of his front foot. Yet, his frequently lunging long jabs were effective against Baer, allowing Primo to score while evading Baer's attempts to counter, and occasionally snapping his head back. Maxie was retreating through most of the bout, and had very few good moments against Carnera which didn't involve a knockdown.

In close, Primo was clubbing Baer with heavy right hands to the ribs, and mauling him about, roughhousing him very physically. He was also throwing shorter and tighter punches in close, especially when he had Maxie pinned against the ropes. Baer was getting tired entering the tenth round, just as Loughran did when going into the championship stretch with Primo, and Carnera appeared to have forged ahead in rounds. Maxie was staring to stumble backwards, no longer skipping gracefully in reverse.

He finally nailed Primo with a roundhouse right behind Carnera's ear, and the defending champion was clearly wobbled seriously. Another looping right, and Primo went down. After a second tenth round knockdown, Baer clocked him with a massive right cross less than ten seconds before round ten ended. While Carnera kept his feet, and weathered the four half hearted follow-up punches Maxie concluded the round with, he dazedly tailed Baer back to Max's corner (much as a stunned and exhausted Loughran shadowed Primo back to his after round 14, where a considerate and charitable Carnera cornerman revived Tommy with a splash of cold spongewater), until Primo's handlers reached him from across the ring.

I also checked out the Carnera/Gains clip on youtube. Yeah, Gains took the decision, but guess what? Fighting off the ropes, Primo knocked the reigning British Empire HW Champion on his ass with a right hand for a referee ruled flash knockdown! (Yes, the knockdown was legitimate, and you can see Jack Hart toll a count of one before Gains bounced back up, at 2:09 on the youtube clip.)

When I look at Gains/Carnera, Carnera/Sharkey I & II, Carnera/Schaaf, and Carnera/Loughran, then compare all that to Baer/Galento, Baer/Comiskey, Nova/Baer I & II, Louis/Baer, Braddock/Baer and other footage of both boxers, I find myself arriving at a surprising conclusion. Max Baer was fortunate that Carnera's ankle was injured severely enough in that first round to require hospitalization and a plaster cast after the fight! Max Baer was also fortunate that there was no return clause for an immediate rematch!

Even on one bad leg, Primo outboxed Baer for six consecutive rounds, and Max was never close to putting Carnera down for the count. (In fact, Primo got up from several of those knockdowns within three seconds.) What would have happened if Carnera had finished that match on two uninjured legs?

I can tell you one thing with absolute confidence. Max Baer could not have won a legitimate 15 round decision over Primo Carnera in a match scored on the rounds system, as Primo's jab was far better suited for winning time limit verdicts than Maxie's roundhouse swings. He would have had to take the Italian out again to win a rematch. Could Baer have beaten Carnera in a rematch? I would not bet money on it!

 

It is also worth noting that Carnera has a better record than Baer vs common oponents.

Their common opponents are-

Joe Louis
Tommy Loughran
Earnie Schaff
Paulino Uzcudun
King Levinski

Baer is 3-4 vs this group while Carnera is 6-1 with the only loss coming to Louis.

 

Gains ,who was an extremely modest man ,told my Father that he didnt have much trouble with Carnera,he said he was mobile for a big man ,but lacked power.

 

I have not seen Gains vs Carerna in a while, but I do remember the action being pretty close in the clips I saw with Gains being slightly the better.

Also, what was up with the gloves in this match. Someone ( could be Gains ) had giant pillow attached to his fists for defense.

I think Carnera had good power, but Gains was the type that was hard to land flush on.

 

Essentially, that's what the footage reveals. When Primo had his back to the ropes, he was frequently able to adroitly and fluidly outmaneuver Gains, spinning him cleverly to reverse their positions. However, he didn't appear to have any snap on his punches, no evident demonstration of any pop behind his blows. Nor could he have been trained to develop that quality in his shots, with the possible exception of his jab, judging from the clips I've seen. Of course mobility, reach and a good jab can take a boxer a long way, and Carnera did pretty well.

Gains outboxed Primo by getting inside the arms of the bigger man, and tagging him with faster and straighter punches. Carnera actually had this same advantage against Baer (although Maxie got him coming over the top). Remarkably enough, it was Carnera in close who produced the shorter and sharper punching between Baer's arms. His quickness was actually superior, and he in fact got the better of some furious exchanges in the middle rounds.

Even Paul Gallico grudgingly acknowledged how Primo eventually evolved through sheer weight of experience alone. ("It was not until late in his career, when in spite of himself he learned something through sheer experience and number of fights, that he ever knocked anybody out on the level." Well, duh! It's kind of hard to go the distance before an audience with opponents like Sharkey, Uzcudun, Maloney, Gains, Levinski, Loughran, Campolo, Lasky, or share the ring with Baer, Stribling, Impelletiere, Shaaf, Louis and numerous 100 fight veterans, and not learn something about boxing, even with negligent tutelage and set-ups.)

It's quite a contrast to read Gallico's "Pity the Poor Giant," in my copy of "The Fireside Book of Boxing," and simultaneously evaluate the movie films or on-line clips of Carnera in action. **** Paul Gallico. Like Bert Sugar, I don't think it occurred to him that so many of us would have the chance to study the footage and decide his true merits and weaknesses for ourselves.

Primo tagged Maxie with a number of double jabs during their contest. 40 seconds into round six he outscored Baer in a furious exchange Max intitiated, which Carnera concluded by driving Maxie off him with a left hook. Nearly two minutes into round nine, Primo snapped Baer's head with a double jab as he backed away to the ropes, then drove the stalking Larruper back out to ring center. A few seconds later he double jabbed Max again, as he was backing away towards his own corner, and followed it up with a right uppercut-left hook-right uppercut combination, before placing his hands on Baer's broad shoulders, and shoving Maxie away back to ring center, al la Foreman, in a virtuous display of physical strength. These are among his best moments in that title change.

He was continually double jabbing Baer, flicking out that pesky swipe of his before leaning back to slip Max's counters. Carnera made Baer miss an awful lot of punches in that fight, but his height make him susceptible to the free swinging Maxie's wide looping shots. Carnera's showing clearly demonstrated how the shorter and faster ringwise Loughran was able to jab Baer silly., amd also how Primo was able to beat Tommy where Max failed. I heartily recommend that anybody else with the time and interest to view Baer/Carnera, and other Carnera footage, do so, and form their own assessment of Primo, rather than rely on hearsay from other sources.

 

As you say Baer wasa sucker for a jab as Loughran and Braddock proved,Max had great power a top chin but was crude when it came to boxing ability.
In fairness to Gallico he did see a lot of Carnera,I think Primo may be enjoying a resurge at the moment,from being under appreciated,he now gets kudos ,that perhaps are un merited,for example ,he has a great ko %, but no historian rates him as a ko puncher,does that tell us something about his career?

 

It's for this reason that I tend to focus instead on Primo's decision wins over Levinski (twice), Uzcudun (twice), Campolo, Maloney, January 1928 Ring Magazine coverboy Pierre Charles, and other noteworthy opponents he outpointed over the distance. Against Loughran, the bigger and heavier man wore down the mobile and much lighter sweet boxing veteran of 15 round matches. How can performances like this be faked? When Carnera was finished with Tommy in Miami, he looked good to go for another 15 rounds, and this was while 20 pounds overweight! Amazing.

It would be interesting to read what Gallico was writing about Carnera while Primo was actually on top, or climbing the ladder to get there. Dirges like "Pity the Poor Giant" are easy to compose after the fact, but was this the same tune Gallico was playing while Carnera was successfully defending his title against Uzcudun and Loughran?

 

I beleive the fights you mentioned were legit,but it must be mentioned that Loughran was slightly past his best and was conceding 84 lbs to Carnera ,also check out Uzcuduns weight against Primo,229 1/4 was much too heavy for him ,the pictures of the fight show him to be fat for this fight.at the time it was the highest amount of weight for two boxers in a title fight.

 

Yeah, and isn't it ridiculous that Paulino was so fat for his all-Latin title fight rematch with Primo on Carnera's home turf, when he couldn't even decision the big Italian in Spain?

As for Loughran, he did have a wealth of experience, was coming off a 15 round decision win over Sharkey (avenging the biggest knockout win of Sharkey's career) a ten round win against Impelletiere, and would shortly go on to decision Godoy over 12 rounds in Buenos Aires, Al Ettore (who himself was one match away from embarking on an eleven bout win streak over opponents with winning records, including an eight round knockout over a nearly 22 year old Jersey Joe Walcott, and three wins over soon to be two time Carnera conquerer Leroy Haynes), as well as two more points wins over skyscraper Impelletiere.

So sure, Tommy may have been slightly past his best, but he was still an excellent world class performer, who was also able to compete on absolutely equal terms with Johnny Risko, Tommy Farr, Walter Neusel and future Louis title challenger Al McCoy. Loughran was hardly a washed up sacrificial token offering at the time he challenged Primo, but a worthy contender who had earned and richly deserved his title shot.

If Carnera had been more aggressive, or if the bout had been scheduled for 20 rounds, he would have taken Tommy out. (He really did have Loughran on "***** Street" at the end of round 14.) No, I give Primo full credit for Loughran. He was the last one who even came close to stopping Tommy before the final bell, and the Philly Phantom had enough left in the tank to go the 12 round distance seven more times in his career. (And I have no doubt that Max Baer breathed a deep sigh of relief that he wouldn't have to challenge a former conquerer to try winning the big enchilada.)

 

In reply to your sarcastic post .I agreed that Carneras wins over those you mentioned were legit,but added that Carnera had an 84lb weight advantage over Loughran,and that Uzcudun was over weight for his title shot,is there any part of that statement that is inaccurate?
The Sharkey return match with Loughran was Sharkeys last fight before retiring.[he subsequently came back].Sharkey was coming off a losing streak having been stopped by Carnera and decisioned by King Levinsky,he had lost motivation ,and desire when he fought Loughran the second time.You talk about the biggest ko of Sharkeys career,that wouldnt take too long to find would it? he only had 13 in 53 fights.To finish you can defend Carnera as you wish ,I wasnt trying to tear him down ,just being cautious about the revisionism ,that seems to be surrounding his career at present.You say loughran was on ***** street during the fight with Carnera .Loughran actually wobble Carnera twice during the fight,in the 4th and10 th rounds ,and Loughran had no power to speak of due to bad hands.Carnera must be given credit for his wins over,Levinsky,Campolo,Impellietirre,Neusal,etc.but I dont think he can go down as one of the better Champs,though at the rate he is going I can see him vying with Ali for top spot in a year or so!Carnera ,for me was not that great,a mechanical boxer ,who didnt really punch his weight ,but who had respectable speed for his size,and a ton of heart.

 

The point should be made that Loughran was the No1 or No2 contender at the time and was being heavily touted as the guy who would sort out the mess of the heavyweight division.

A lot of Carneras critics went away with their tails between their legs that night.

 

You and I had a lengthy "duelling banjos"debate on this before Janitor,Im content to let the "Ambling Alp" rest in peace,he seems to have been a nice man with some talent and a heart to match his size.So Im going to let this one slide.

 

And we damn him for it.

Carnera gave him a shot at the lineal heavyweight title under the most favourable circumstances possible.

It wasnt Carneras job to march him to the gym and make him train.