Cassius Clay vs Alex Miteff (How Much Did They Pay Alex To Take A Dive)

Senor Pepe

If your point was that Miteff was selected because Ali's backers felt he was NOT that big of a threat,

I agree.

An outright fix--naw

As you pointed out, fighting faded names is the way up for good young prospects. If someone like Ali couldn't get past someone like Miteff, he probably wasn't much of a prospect to begin with.

Witness Lamar Clark

Or better yet--Franco DiPiccoli

 

Tommy hearns had no punch as a youngster and we all no what happened there i didnt know boxing was just about having dynamite in your gloves

 

I wasnt aware that Ali EVER relied simply on punching power, especially in the Miteff fight where he took his time and took Miteff apart in very workmanlike fashion.

 

All right, Senor Pepe', I've been on your threads enough times for you to know that I'm not a kneejerk critic of yours, nor would it send me shivering into the fetal position to find out that the early Ali fights were worked. I am pretty worn out, however, by thread clogs like Lord Tywin, who can't even pull together enough brainpower to debate you with enough a preliminary display of intelligent reasoning. So, with your permission, I will do his job for him and play Devil's Advocate to your posiiton and fire the questions that he should be asking you if he was capable of doing anything beyond namecalling.

Here goes:

1.) Did Ali's handlers pay off Miteff because they really believed he couldn't beat him straight up or just for insurance of their investment?
2.) What was their position on Ali at this time in his career? Bad investment? Couldn't fight? Just buying him time?
3.) If any of these was correct, what was the eventual payoff? I'm assuming Liston wasn't "in the bag" yet, and I would guess that guidng Ali through a bunch of setups to get a title shot that they knew he would lose wouldn't bring much of a return on their money?
4.) Why did Ali get this "push"? Previous Olympians (I'm thinking Ed Sanders) didn't get this kind of a push. Ali wasn't a "white hope". He wasn't particularly marketable that I could determine. So why the mega-push with a top heavy initial cash outlay?
5.) Is there precedent in boxing from that era of someone else getting built up from scratch and having that kind of cash outlay up front and again, what was the perceived pot of gold at the end of the rainbow?
6.) Joe Frazier had a similar set of investors in Cloverlay. Why didn't they do the same thing?
7.) And finally, if Ali needed fixes pre-exile, how did he come back after exile seemingly not in need of such treatment and at worst barely the second best heavy on the planet to a prime Frazier? And I've never heard you claim that his 1970's fights were all scams, so how did he end up fighting Norton 3X, Frazier 3X, Shavers, etc, and even taking on dangerous underdogs like Blue Lewis and Mac Foster? It would seem, with your thesis, that Ali suddenly learned to fight over his three years spent on college campuses giving speeches?

Interested in your responses, which I'm sure will be well thought out.

 

"William Faversham Jr got Miteff a role in the movie Requiem for a Heavyweight"

For one day extra pay? He sold-out cheap.

But this brings up something I had never thought about. Sammy Baugh got the starring role in King of the Texas Rangers in 1941 after his Washington Redskins blew the championship game to the Chicago Bears. He got paid the then considerable sum of $6000.

Was this a reward for Slingin' Sammy dumping the NFL title game?

 

Max Baer and Primo Carnera starred in a movie together also, did Primo tank to Baer so he could be a movie star?

 

Miteff was trying to win, couldnt score a KO and because he knew he would not get the decision he threw himself down. Happens all the time. Even if a fight is prety even. All faded names do it. But alex did try ...and he was a handfull for a young kid whilst he was trying.

If there was a deal, Alex looked keen to double cross the fixers if he could score a KO.

 

You are right about Miteff having lost enthusiasm for boxing. In The 1961 October issue of Boxing Illustrated before he meets clay an article by Joseph T Friscia called “The rise and Fall of a heavyweight contender” a feature about Alex Miteff the fighter himself says:


“I had high hopes when I came to America, everybody was telling me I was going to be champion. They put me in with the toughest guys to see how I would stand up. None of them hurt me. Maybe I was good. But being champion is not so important anymore. I have a wife and two kids. Fighting is just a job so I can support them.. In Argentina we were poor, but we live a good life. In America you lead a good life only if you have money”
　
His trainer Freddie Fierro says:


“ He don’t train like he used to. I don’t know if its down to laziness or disgust”

　
In 1955 Murray Rose had scouted Miteff for Hymie wallman of new York who sighed Alex after Rose saw Alex flatten Noble Lee in the Pan American Boxing Tournament. As an Amateur Miteff had won eight titles in 3 different weight classes scoring 90 Knock outs. In his first New York sparring session Miteff knocked out seasoned pro Julio mederos who had just knocked out Roland Lastarza and Harold Johnson. According to the article experts rated Miteff the new Dempsey, a potential Dempsey needing training and polish. He was a bleeder with a big punch who could win close fights in New York but never on the road. He was rushed and by 1961 local promoters were paying the most money for him against homeboys.

 

Is this supposed to be an answer?

You make a bold statement with point E but have offered nothing whatsoever as proof.
He had a bit part in a movie. Big deal.

He quit after fighting Williams. His previous purse was $1500, and so on.

None of this equals a fixed fight even remotely.

 

Tywin, you've spent months and months trolling every thread Pepe starts and offering absolutely NOTHING of value. In one post, I demonstrated what a useless waste of bandwidth you are and challenged his position FOR YOU. Do us all a favor and drop out of all his threads until you learn how to constructively debate his position.

Let me put it another way, if Pepe is a drooling fool who lives in a conspiracy filled world of delusions, why would you waste your time arguing points with him? Seriously, man, are you as insecure as you seem? Is Pepe disrupting some adolescent view of Boxing as some hallmark of truth, justice, and the American Way and you can't help fighting to preserve your sense of emotional equilibrium?

I have no earthly idea whether Clay-Miteff was fixed. But the possibility doesn't cause me to question the sanctity of all things holy and pure. Give it a rest and enjoy his research. I don't think the WBA and WBC are going to strip Ali in retrospect of his titles because of Senor Pepe.