Cassius Clay vs Alex Miteff (How Much Did They Pay Alex To Take A Dive)

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Senor Pepe', Oct 19, 2012.


  1. Senor Pepe'

    Senor Pepe' Boxing Junkie banned

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    D9,

    On Question 2,

    A) Bad Investment
    B) Couldn't fight
    C) Buying time

    A little bit of all three. Cassius got some 'bad' write ups in the Louisville Newspapers
    after the Alonzo Johnson 'fiasco'.

    He was 'labeled' Cautious Cassius, and some questioned his heart, and they called
    him 'Cassius the Coward'.

    It was important to get a 'knockout win' in the next bout, and against a name opponent,
    or former contender. Alex Miteff fit the bill 'perfectly'.

    Cassius was still a 'skinny' 190 lb. fighter, and the hope was that he would grow
    into a solid 205 lb. Heavyweight within 18-months.
     
  2. johnmaff36

    johnmaff36 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    D9G, as im sure Senor Pepe will agree, ive had a few debates with him and questioned his agenda on numerous occasions. That doesnt mean i dont think he knows his stuff, his Liston threads (amongst others) are great reading and he has a fine insight into boxing of that time. However, as much as i like his other threads, its clear as day he has an axe to grind about Ali/Clay and has made some outrageous statements that the likes of Lord Tywin has called him on. Theres nothing wrong with that as this is a boxing forum and both guys are entitled to their says, just as you and i are.


    Im not sure if you are aware of some of the threads and claims SP has made in the 3000+ posts hes made(or maybe you are) but id say at least 75% of them is Ali/Clay related and hinting at the negative at best. Other guys, such as Lord Tywin, call bull**** and get frustrated because SP doesnt always answer questions that hes asked such as sources etc... so i can understand his frustration

    Personally i try not to get involved now as i think hes winding people up, he has to be.


    And by the way, those were a good set of questions you posed SP, AND AS MUCH AS ID LIKE TO SEE THEM ANSWERED I FEAR THEY WONT BECAUSE A FEW OF THEM HAVE BEEN ASKED BEFORE WITHOUT REPLY. (Sorry bout the big print, hit the button by mistake but im ****ed if im typing that out again):good
     
  3. Senor Pepe'

    Senor Pepe' Boxing Junkie banned

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    D9,

    If you look into the LSG Management Group, you will get a better understanding
    of who they were, and what they were all about.

    Investors, who were looking to make money.

    All businessmen from the Louisville area, with loads of money.

    They had an overwhelming edge, when they put Cassius Clay into professional
    bouts.

    A) Selected opponents
    B) Pay the opponent a large fight purse, for a non-threatening performance
    C) Collapse on 'cue', to make Clays' predictions look authentic

    Take a look at the Lamar Clark 'circus side-show'. Not one legitimate fighter
    out there at that time would fight him, because he was labeled a 'joke'. Then
    the LSG Group puts that bout together, and promotes Lamar Clark as some kind
    of 'knockout machine'.

    Nobody had even heard of the guy, until LSG promoted him.
     
  4. D9Garrard

    D9Garrard Active Member Full Member

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    JohnMaff,

    I've read probably every one of Il Duce/Pepe's threads over the last two or three years. I understand he has a historical agenda of wanting to demythologize certain fighters(Ali, Leonard, sometimes Duran...) and he works very hard to make a compelling case. My question is what's so threatening to the Lord Tywin's of the world that they have to react so childishly in these threads.

    I visit a board where researchers from around the world discuss the JFK assassination, most of whom are authors or known historians. Invariably, there are people who join the board who argue angrily that Oswald was the sole shooter and believe the "magic bullet" theory. If they really don't believe in a conspiracy, then why invest all that time and energy passionately attacking something you yourself believe is absurd? Seriously, if there was a thread arguing that the Earth was flat, I wouldn't waste my time debating the obvious. I just would shake my head, smile, and move on.

    My guess is that the reason that people get enraged about Pepe's Ali threads is that they suspect down deep that he's dead right and it really disrupts their view of boxing history. Otherwise, why get upset?
     
  5. edward morbius

    edward morbius Boxing Addict Full Member

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    "Lamar Clark"

    "Nobody had even heard of the guy"

    He had appeared on national TV. There had been talk before he was exposed against Bartolo Soni of his fighting Patterson.

    Yes, Clark was utterly built up, but what is your point exactly? That Ali in his first year as a pro was fed "name" fighters who really weren't much of a threat to an Olympic champion?

    So what? What would you expect? That is how you build up a prospect who is still a growing lad in his teens.

    As for fixes, you really should do some good research. It was Sonny Liston who was found by a US Senate Investigating Committee to have had six fixed fights on his way up. Look it up.

    You have offered no proof of Ali fixes on this thread, just strained suppositions.
     
  6. Senor Pepe'

    Senor Pepe' Boxing Junkie banned

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    Red Dillon,

    Louisville Sportswriter, commenting on Alex Miteff -

    Previous bouts;

    May 20, 1960..............L Dec 10 - Eddie Machen (New York)
    December 6, 1960........L Dec 10 - Henry Cooper (London)
    March 6, 1961.............W Dec 10 - Alonzo Johnson (New York)
    March 27, 1961............L Dec 10 - George Chuvalo (Canada)
    May 16, 1961...............L TKO 5 - Cleveland Williams (Houston)
    June 22, 1961..............L TKO 7 - Bob Cleroux (Canada)
    August 31, 1960...........W KO 3 - Jimmy McCarter (Los Angeles)

    We're not sure what Alex Miteff's handlers are trying to accomplish,
    as they are putting this guy in the ring with anyone who can fight. If
    anything, it is obvious that they are trying to cash in on his name and
    once #6 Heavyweight ranking.

    In May of last year, Alex took a bad beating at the hands of fast hitting
    Eddie Machen, resulting in an early retirement from the ring. But Alex was
    talked into a bout with Henry Cooper in London 5-months later, and after
    getting his ears boxed off in nearly every round, Alex almost pulled off an
    upset, by flooring the British Heavyweight with a left hook. That one punch,
    seemed to save his career temporarily.

    In March 1961, and in New York, Alex plodded his way to a Decision victory
    over Alonzo Johnson, but he was far from impressive.

    But, Miteff's handlers, instead of feeding the 26 year-old a steady diet of
    soft touches to help build up his confidence and improve his record,
    threw the Argentinian into a 'trifecta' of tough bouts as a visiting villain.
    A 10-Round battering by Canadian George Chuvalo, a brutal knockout loss
    to murderous punching Cleveland Williams in Houston, and back to Canada
    for a battering by Bob Cleroux.

    In his recent bout, Alex was paid $1500 for a visit to Los Angeles to be an
    opponent for former National AAU Heavyweight Champion - Jimmy McCarter.
    Alex was supposed to lose, but he won, and that victory has injected a
    moment of life into his dying career.

    The promoters here in Louisville needed a 'name opponent' for this Nationally
    Televised bout with Cassius Clay, to showcase the 20 years-old's skills.
    They attempted to get Alex on the 'cheap' for $3500, but his handler's held
    out and demanded more than the typical opponent fight purse fee. Insiders
    said, Alex's name on Cassius Clay's win record is worth a '5-figure purse',
    and the promoters who were at first reluctant with that amount, finally agreed
    to $10,000.

    The Heavyweight career for Alex Miteff is truly over, and the only thing he has left
    is his Argentinian Pride, and his name. Unfortunately, the only thing Alex can sell
    is his name, as he is being tossed around by his handler's, as a way to get a few
    more pay-days before he gets sent off to pasture, or the hospital.
     
  7. Wass1985

    Wass1985 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Yes he is dead right, alis fights were fixed and he would rather fight easy opponents than top fighters. Old cassius was a coward, just imagine what the likes of liston,frazier,foreman,norton and shavers would have done to the glass jawed coward if he had the courage to face them, oh wait a minute.......
     
  8. salsanchezfan

    salsanchezfan Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    If you spend time in a forum dedicated to the JFK assassination, then it speaks volumes about why you find Pepe's threads so fun. :roll:

    I'm not a fan of any of the fighters he trashes, but agree that he is part of the Tinfoil Hat Brigade. He might as well be One Punch over in the Lounge. No one likes reading his **** either.
     
  9. Senor Pepe'

    Senor Pepe' Boxing Junkie banned

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    Sal,,,,,,

    You just read it, and enjoyed it.

    I don't trash fighters, I post an argument.
     
  10. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    Alex Miteff was a classic example of a good fighter who might have been something but was rushed too fast and became disillusioned. He suffered bad scar tissue beating Nino Valdes early on and often bled in fights after that.

    Over a short space of time Alex fought 20 men who were rated in the ring magazine top ten. By 1961 he had met 7 of the annual top top ten at one time or another. He lost to most of them but still beat Valdes, Holman, Mederos, Carter, Bethea, Mcbride, alonzo Johnson and drew with Chuvalo in Canada.

    The pity was I think Alex Miteff was at least as good as Chuvalo who never beat him decisively twice in the Canadians home town. One was a draw, the other was a SD. You get a draw and a split decision loss in the other mans home town it usualy says something!
     
  11. Senor Pepe'

    Senor Pepe' Boxing Junkie banned

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    Mr. Choklab

    The first of the many stumbles by Alex Miteff

    September 25, 1959 (War Memorial Stadium -Syracuse, New York)

    The 24 year-old Alex, was the #7 Heavyweight, with a record of 20-3-1 (11 KO's).

    They brought him up to Syracuse, to take on Detroit Heayweight, 25 year-old
    Billy 'High Shoes' Hunter, a 6' 3" 187 lb. boxer, with a slashing left jab.

    Billy at 15-6-3 (7 KO's) wasn't a big puncher, but was a precise puncher.
    He also was a stablemate of Sugar Ray Robisnon.

    Out-weighed by 23 lbs., Hunter just kept using precise left jabs, to bust the eye-brows
    open on Alex, who was 'blood-drenched' by the 5th Round. More finesse and more left jabs
    turned Alex into a 'crimson mess' by the end of Round 7.

    The bout was stopped, when Dr. Charles E. Bender ruled that Alex was too badly cut
    to continue, as he was getting sliced apart by Billy Hunter.
     
  12. johnmaff36

    johnmaff36 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    yeah, thats a fair point. I can only speak for myself here, that sometimes ive got involved not so much as i think deep down hes right, but that some claims are so ludicrous i feel they need addressed. All part of a forum i suppose
     
  13. johnmaff36

    johnmaff36 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Not all the time SP, not all the time:hey
     
  14. Senor Pepe'

    Senor Pepe' Boxing Junkie banned

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    John Maff,

    I respect your opinion,,,,,,

    This thread though, on Alex Miteff is 'correct'.

    He quit 4-times after the Eddie Machen bout, forgetting about
    becoming a Heavyweight Contender anymore.

    But would be the 'visiting opponent' for the right price.
     
  15. johnmaff36

    johnmaff36 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    TBH i wasnt refering to this thread