Cassius Clay vs FOTC Frazier

Cassius Clay NEVER had any trouble with anyone who could go 15 rounds.

Post exile Muhammad Ali did. 2 completely different fighters. In the FOTC Ali had fought a total of 18 rounds in the previous 4 years. Frazier had had 14 fights in the same amount of time.

It is ludicrous to believe that slow rusty version of Ali was in any way, shape or form comparable to the guy who beat Liston, changed his name, and went unbeaten until his forced exile in 67.

Ffs his performances in the rematch, and the rubber match against Frazier improved significantly, and that was NOTHING to do with Joe getting slaughtered by Foreman. It was due to Ali having more rounds under his belt ,and being able to land more shots than he did in the FOTC.

Liston, to the 67 version of Clay / Ali would pepper Frazier's face with jabs, and fast combo's and be gone. Rinse and repeat to a wide UD win. The guy was no fool, he would realise it was Frazier in the other corner and not someone like Cooper, who he was carrying until the round he predicted he would stop Henry ( 5th ) and get too clever, getting caught with a big shot.

He would give Frazier the same respect he gave Liston IN the ring, the last thing he would do is try to stand his ground with Joe.

 

:good

 

My forecast too. The Ali of 1966/67 had as much speed as two years previously plus he was stronger and had more ring savvy.

 

Yep ! Ali got back part,but not all,of his pre exile form in between his first and second fight with Frazier.

 

Frazier by points.

 

Cassius Clay never fought anyone close to the 1971 Frazier. Frazier would be hell for him no matter when they fought. Frazier UD15.

 

I think it'd be even worse for the young Clay. The older, heavier, more physically mature and stronger Ali took a better punch and was better in the clinch. Both were critical in the Frazier trilogy.

Clay may've been more flashy, but I think FOTC Frazier would've knocked him out.

 

Ali weighed 215, 212, and 224 pounds for the 3 Frazier fights.

He weighed 211, 212, and 212 pounds respectively for his last 3 fights before his exile, against Williams, Folley, and Terell.

Discounting the last fight where both were a shell of themselves, he was barely bigger in the 70s than he was in the late 60s.

He wasn't bigger, he was just out of shape. He exploded in weight during his years in exile and never got in the same shape again.

Him and Marciano in 1969: https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/07/d7/5e/07d75e4283d6ed33a2f9d10bdaa813ac.jpg

He showed good power in the Folley and Williams fights. An attribute which he lacked for most of the 60s. 67 Ali was THE best version of Ali in every way imaginable.

People are deluding themselves if they think 70s Ali was better in any way...maybe he had better ring smarts, if you wanna call fouling and wrestling ring smarts. But he needed to develop them BECAUSE of his diminishing athleticism...

 

Well for one, no professional athlete's strength peaks out when they're 25 unless there's some sort of catastrophic injury.

For two, Cassius Clay had already been Muhammad Ali for a few years by the references you're citing.

I still maintain that FOTC Frazier knocks out Cassius Clay. Lesser talents than Joe were landing on him, so I really don't buy that he's going to avoid Joe and dance for 15 rounds. Nor will I give him credit for the strength and grappling ability he improved upon as his career developed.

Ali was a great enough fighter without needing to cherry pick his best attributes from the course of his career to create a fighter that never actually existed in the ring.

 

You're forgetting one thing, most athletes don't have nearly 4 years of doing nothing in their prime....

 

I've also forgotten most posters don't seem to read thread titles, either.

Clay become Ali on February 26, 1964.

Look, I know Ali is the most sacred of sacred cows on here, so if you and Pug would rather answer a different question than the one being asked so you can keep rolling with Ali, go right ahead. If you guys want to think that a 22 year old version was the strongest Ali/Clay there ever was, go nuts. Heck, it doesn't fit the timeline, but use the 67 version- who needs to worry about pesky details like that? I'm not out to change your mind.

All I know is from the fights I saw of Cassius Clay, I don't believe he's lasting 15 against FOTC Frazier. Cheers :good

 

My bad I didn't read the OP, Frazier would give Ali or Clay hell IMO. Who knows how much the layoff affected him, he looked impressive to me though in the FOTC.

 

Clay UD

too fast, too pretty, too handsome


he could float all day in his prime

 

64 Ali isn't beating Frazier. 67 Ali isn't beating Frazier. No version of Ali can beat a prime FOTC Frazier.

I'm just disputing the idea that 70s Ali was superior to the 67 version, who consistently weighed in 210+ pounds and demonstrated good power in his last pre-exile performances.

 

Ffs. ANY version of Joe Frazier isn't going to get ANYWHERE near Clay / Ali of 64 / 67. This wouldn't be Clay carrying muppets to fulfil his predictions. This would be a guy totally intent on winning the fight.

Joe Frazier, though a fighter that commands respect from EVERYONE who EVER had the privilege of seeing him perform, was not in the same league as Clay / Ali, and would have been humiliated by the 64 - 67 version of the Louisville Lip.