Champion s That Cleaned Out Their Division - Avoiding No one?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Fergy, May 10, 2022.

  1. FastLeft

    FastLeft Member Full Member

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    I do not say Hagler was scared.

    He avoided a mandatory challenge and fought Leonard instead. Hagler was champion who was always to fight mandatory & no.1 challenges.
    He knew about Graham & knew he championship rules he was due to make defends & he turn down the fight and was stripped. this is truth of how it happen.
    Hagler = great champion
    but can't say he never avoided anyone and cleaned out 1980-87.
    fighting one time a year he should fight ranking middleweight & no one can complain. Remember Hagler did complaints when he was contender 1977-80 but when older champion 1986-87 there was queue of challenger as usual and he ignore it for Leonard fight. Not a problem for Hagler legend but that is some 'avoidance'.
     
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  2. Fergy

    Fergy Walking Dead Full Member

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    I don't think that Hagler avoided him. Like I've said, to be fair, Graham was a tricky guy to fight and wouldn't be a walk over.
    But I don't think Marvin gave him much thought.
    The big prize at the time was Ray.
    That was the important fight for him.
     
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  3. FastLeft

    FastLeft Member Full Member

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    Hagler always fought his mandatory challenge. except Graham. I doubt Hagler give Fulgwncio Obelmejas any much thought also but he fought him twice because he #1 & mandatory.

    Yes he forget mandatory and #1 after 1986 because he want Leonard. Leonard was not worth a middleweight challenger but was worth money only.
     
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  4. Fergy

    Fergy Walking Dead Full Member

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    But only the WBA stripped him of their belt. The WBC, and the Ring Magazine still saw this as a genuine world title fight. He was still the lineal champ, fighting Leonard.
    Graham got his shot anyway and lost to McCallum.
     
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  5. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    If Hagler had just one title your point would be sound but he didn't - he had three. Graham wasn't much in the big scheme of things at that time and Hagler was pondering retirement when the Leonard bucks enticed him.

    A Hearns rematch was also ahead of Graham and rightly so.

    As for Leonard not being worthy, well yes sort of but he did win so hindsight tells us he was certainly worthy, ability wise, of the WBC's decision to sanction and the IBF's decision to hold.
     
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  6. Clinton

    Clinton Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I never said you said he was scared. I dont know where you got that from. I wrote you made it seem like Hagler ducked Graham, which he didn't. He took a much bigger payday against a fighter who, quite frankly, is superior to Graham. After 12 or 13 successful title defences- I believe that qualifies as cleaning out a division- he took the massive money which, quite frankly, he earned, and then retired. It is that simple.
     
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  7. Clinton

    Clinton Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Leonard was worthy simply because he is one of the greatest fighters, something Graham isnt close to being. John, can you imagine? Hagler "avoided" Graham to fight Leonard- a superior fighter to Graham. You can't make this madness up lol.
     
  8. Clinton

    Clinton Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Leonard, one of the greatest fighters ever not a "worth a middleweight challenger"? Why, because he hadnt fought at middleweight before? I can't stand Leonard more than any other fighter. But he certainly earned it. His accomplishments speak for themselves.
     
  9. Clinton

    Clinton Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    This sums it up John. Another excellent post from you
     
  10. he grant

    he grant Historian/Film Maker Full Member

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    Yes but they were set ups and he was known as a jr middleweight ... he did get the fight because he was the most deserving middleweight post Hearns .. he got it for a money fight much like Hearns did before and Leonard after .. Parker was a tiny middleweight past contender status as his multiple losses to that divisions better contenders showed while Fletcher , an exciting catcher was destroyed by Roldan .. as far as rated goes JT, you know that means little other than easy access when needed. There was little doubt who was the better fought between McCallum and Mugabi ever ..
     
  11. Titan1

    Titan1 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    How about Jimmy Bivins for Joe Louis circa 1946?
     
  12. scartissue

    scartissue Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Excellent pick. Jimmy slipped right through my net. He was the most deserving when the soldiers came home in both the heavyweight and light heavyweight division. A pure shame he didn't get his shot.
     
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  13. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Again very fair points Clinton, as usual mate.
     
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  14. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    What do you mean by set ups tho? Top 10 contenders are top 10 contenders and beating top ten contenders makes you a top 10 contender. Beating multiple in overwhelming fashion will take you higher up the rankings.

    You say he was "known" as a junior middleweight yet he was beating middleweight contenders. Just because he could make junior middleweight if needed doesn't mean he can't fight for the middleweight title particularly due to the fact he was beating contenders there. Aren't you proposing that Mike McCallum, junior middleweight part titlist should have got the shot? He wasn't beating anyone of note at middleweight and Mugabi was, again, beating ranked contenders. Ironically Mugabi beat more Middleweight contenders than Junior middleweight contenders in this period.

    You said he did get the fight because he was most deserving. Did you mean didn't?

    He got the fight because he was beating middleweight contenders and making a helluva lot of noise doing it. He was creating public demand, quite a bit of it. People wanted to see him in there for a crown. He was in line for a shot against both Hearns and Hagler. Hagler gave him the shot and Hearns wiped out one of Haglers very top contenders on the undercard.

    Parker was a contender before and after he fought Mugabi. A contender is a contender. If you are a contender you are surely not past contender status.

    Fletcher was still a contender based on previous performances and the caliber of who he'd actually lost to. You can lose twice to highly considered fighters and still be ranked.

    McCallum had been doing nothing at 160 as opposed to Mugabi who was beating contenders and making noise. Mugabi shouldn't be the one under scrutiny. McCallum was making little noise in his own division. McCallum often got criticized for bland boring performances and not being will to take risks or let it hang out. It wasn't until he beat the hyped up Curry that he got wider recognition. Insiders knew he was a very good fighter but not how good he might become and the general paying public were mostly oblivious.

    It would be revisionist history to say McCallum was considered better or more worthy at the time. McCallum's biggest highlight going into the Mugabi - Hagler was beating Kalule who had just been stopped by Davey Moore and Braxton who wasn't even rated in the top half of the division at 154. He'd done nothing in the big scheme of things. Hagler might not have even known his name and most certainly wouldn't have been keeping track of anything he was doing. He wasn't even beating names in Hagler's division.

    McCallum's claims have tricked a helluva lot of people. He'd make a great salesman. It's all there in the timeline and impossible to mistake under close inspection.

    This is coming from someone that thinks Mugabi is heavily overrated due to his great effort against Hagler. I have to be fair with the facts tho and Mugabi deserved his shot, and he most certainly deserved it ahead of McCallum.

    We can't pretend the McCallum from 7 fights later existed in 85-86 because he simply didn't no matter how much he'd like us to think otherwise.
     
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  15. Richard M Murrieta

    Richard M Murrieta Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I also do not think that Marvelous Marvin Hagler avoided Herol Graham even though Graham was rated as WBA no.1 mandatory challenger. I believe Hagler did what many current champion do, take the most prestigious fight for the big monetary gains. It was a gamble because in his last title defense before facing a come backing Sugar Ray Leonard, he had a good war against John The Beast Mugabi in May 1986. As a fighter gets older, inactivity is a poison to them. If Hagler had kayoed Leonard as I posted before, it would be a Catch 22. Boxing experts would say, he knocked out a has been that has not had any competition for a few years. On the other hand, when Hagler lost, the experts then said, Hagler Lost To A Has Been That Has Been Out Of The Ring For Awhile. I know money talks but I would have faced Graham, satisfying the WBA, then took a chance facing Leonard, knock him out then tie the record of 14 title defenses held by Carlos Monzon, then retire with the title like Monzon.
     
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