Charles P4P GOAT?

McGrain · Mar 20, 2008

Doppleganger said:

There's a few fighters who at least head to head have a shout at beating him but I agree that Charles is probably the greatest LHW of all time. Beating Archie Moore 3 times kinda seals it.
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Basically the equivilant of Louis beating Frazier or Lewis 3 times!

Manassa · Mar 20, 2008

McGrain said:

I have Charles at #5 personally.
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Why do you always have to copy me??

McGrain · Mar 20, 2008

Manassa said:

Why do you always have to copy me??
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You copied me.

And I liked The Who before you. Before you were born.

Manassa · Mar 20, 2008

McGrain said:

You copied me.

And I liked The Who before you. Before you were born.
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... Fat cow.

McGrain · Mar 20, 2008

Doppleganger · Mar 20, 2008

McGrain said:

Basically the equivilant of Louis beating Frazier or Lewis 3 times!
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Exactly!! Although it doesn't make Charles the GOAT it's seriously damm impressive!!

Minotauro · Mar 20, 2008

I think an argument can be made for Charles as the no 1 p4p best however I feel a stronger argument can be made for others namely Robinson, Armstrong, Greb and Langford. I regard him a top 5 p4p and greatest light heavyweight strictly by resume only Langford and Greb could claim to have better.

Sweet Pea · Mar 20, 2008

McGrain said:

I have Langford above him, Charles is at two. I think Tunney would have a very good chance and you know I think Jones could possibly do a job on him.
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Based purely on work at LHW you rank Langford above him?

McGrain · Mar 20, 2008

Sweet Pea said:

Based purely on work at LHW you rank Langford above him?
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Oh, no, as you know i'm much more flighty than that.

Purely resume based? Charles is your man.

Sweet Pea · Mar 20, 2008

McGrain said:

Oh, no, as you know i'm much more flighty than that.

Purely resume based? Charles is your man.
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I'd favor a peak Charles head to head as well. Though I've seen you and Manassa duke it out over this.

McGrain · Mar 20, 2008

Sweet Pea said:

Though I've seen you and Manassa duke it out over this.
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That was a good one.

mr. magoo · Mar 20, 2008

PowerPuncher said:

Should Charles be P4P GOAT?

Prize fighter from 160-HW facing everyone of note in those divisions and coming out on top from 1946-1951.

Most rate him no1 LHW of all time.

Why he should rate over:

Sugar Ray Robinson - SRR avoided the best black fighters of his era and therefore the best P4P fighters of his era. SRR's resume therefore doesn't stand upto Ezzards. Ie, SRR avoided Burley who Charles beat.

Henry Armstrong - Charles fought P4P better comp. Charles fought in as many weight classes. Charles was more dominant in his wins, whereas Armstrong struggled and lost to a lower tier of contender. Armstrong was also steered clear of Burley

Greb - Charles fought in a harder era, Charles was around the same size as Greb but fought and beat the better HWs

Duran - Charles wins are a level above Durans best wins

Leonard - too inactive

Fitzsimmons - Charles too was once a middleweight and fought and beat better HWs

Ezzard Charles, who can beat his resume:

Joe Louis - past his prime BUT still elite. Who can claim a better scalp in his 3rd division?

Marciano - Charles was past his prime but still nearly beat Rocky in the first fight.

Archie Moore - 5 wins against a top10 P4P of all time

Burley - 1 of the best WWs ever?

Jersey Joe Walcott - top15 HW of all time
Bivins

Lloyd Marshall

Maxim

Layne

Satterfield

Holman

Elmer Ray

A sensationally talented resume where he faced the fighters multiple times, avenging his losses, and having a long unbeaten run against the very best ducking no one.
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That is a pretty incredible resume, and frankly I never quite thought about him in that reguard. He is certainly among the very best of fighters.

PowerPuncher · Mar 21, 2008

Sweet Pea said:

He does not rate above Greb at all. Your argument was very unconvincing, not to mention straight up incorrect, especially when taking into account the size of both fighters. Greb was a 5'8 MW fighting greats from MW to HW. Charles started at MW, but was clearly natural at LHW, and his overall resume is not better than Greb's in a P4P sense.

He also lost 25 times out of about 115-120 fights, whereas Greb lost just 21 in about 300 fights. Not the best statistic, but it holds merit, considering you can make no case that Charles was more consistent, nor further past his best in his losses than a half blind Greb.

I rate Charles #6 on my P4P list.
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Greb and CHarles best weight was probably 168-175 which puts them in the same bracket

Your comparison of losses is VERY unfair. Charles fought way past his prime when he was shot to bits, Greb died just at the end of his prime , what if Greb fights on past his prime and adds 20-30losses to his ledger, is he a worse P4P fighter?

I would also add that Charles fought the much tougher competition, the much bigger higher class of HWs and in a tougher era

PowerPuncher · Mar 21, 2008

mcvey said:

Charles was considerably bigger than SRR,even in his early days so his wins overBurley and co arent as impressive ,as you imply,I wouldnt put Charles in my top 10 Hvys and it isnt a given he is no1 at LH ,with Tunney and Langford to consider,I would rate Greb above Ezzard,Armstrong too. I put Charles about 7th.p4p.
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The Burley win isn't a stand alone win, but SRR ducking Burley shadows his legacy, Charles ducked no one from 160-HW

Langford is someone I missed off but I rate Charles slightly above LAngford and the superior competition edges Charles beyond Langford. They were similar weight wise and Charles fought better men below HW and better men at HW.

PowerPuncher · Mar 21, 2008

McGrain said:

I have Langford above him, Charles is at two. I think Tunney would have a very good chance and you know I think Jones could possibly do a job on him.

PP, I think there is a case. I see it this way - Greb, Langford, Robinson and Armstrong all have a very serious case.

The second clutch is made up of Charles, Pep and Walker. With some work, a very very serious case can be made.

Then you hvae guys like Duran, Ali, Moore, where no real case exsists, but there are slender threads that can be properly gathered into a compelling argument.

I have Charles at #5 personally.
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I can't believe I missed Pepp and LAngford. Pepp rates below because for my money a P4P GOAT should prove himself against bigger men. Langford was dominant but didnt do aswell ad Charles against the best HWs he faced AND didn't face as higher ranking ATGs as Charles

I think Ali has a good resume case to be P4P no1. I don't think Ali is a complete enough fighter to be P4P GOAT though

Incidently I don't think Charles is an unbeatable force and many lose to the occasional great LHW, the same has to be said for Greb at 160, Pepp at 126, Langford at 175. The only fighter who I wouldnt expect to lose at their best weight would be SRR at 147 I doubt there is anyone who could beat SRR. BUT maybe SRR wasnt even the best 147lber of his era, which his avoidance of Burley indicates this possibility. SRR knew he was invisable

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