Charles-Walcott, Schmeling-Sharkey, Folley-Machen...

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by mattdonnellon, Jun 20, 2014.


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  1. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    I think Johansson over Folley is the most logical pick, but it should be noted that Folley, at his best, was likely the harder to hit clean and that it is possible that Machen had the left hand to decision Johansson (indeed, that was what was expected by many) were he harder to hit clean.

    In the end, Johansson's exploits against extraordinary lefts is good (Patterson, Cooper (arguably should be included), Machen, and to a lesser degree Hoff) so I would favour him, but it's very possible that he would drop a stinker.
     
    McGrain, Jun 20, 2014
    McGrain, Jun 20, 2014
    #16
  2. mattdonnellon

    mattdonnellon Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Machens edge is at his best he lost to Ingo, Folley, Liston, and Johnson. He did better against prime Liston than just about anybody. Folley meantime was losing to Summerline, Young Jack Johnson, Doug Jones, Cooper and Lavourante, inconsistent or brittle, take your pick. Machen always beat that caliber of opponent.
     
    mattdonnellon, Jun 20, 2014
    mattdonnellon, Jun 20, 2014
    #17
  3. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Well if you allow losses outside of prime, Machen has Mildenberger, Ramos, Clark as losses. Which does contradict that statement a bit.

    At his best I would argue that Folleylost only to Liston and Cooper, and the Cooper decision was at least questionable.

    At his best, Machen was losing to Folley.
     
    McGrain, Jun 20, 2014
    McGrain, Jun 20, 2014
    #18
  4. mattdonnellon

    mattdonnellon Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Poor old Folley, your giving him a very short prime!
    Now I rate Sharkey ahead of Schmeling and expect serious contradiction for that. Max seems to have a big revival on this form of late. McGrain and Morbius give a lot of weight to a big win and maybe Frazier over Ali tops Schmeling's signature win. I factor in the five to ten best performances and damning losses a bit more I think.
    McVea over Jeannette too and I'm open to convincing on the Charles-Walcott question.
     
    mattdonnellon, Jun 20, 2014
    mattdonnellon, Jun 20, 2014
    #19
  5. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    I'm giving him a prime of four years, which is pretty long actually. It's probably not even realistic, but it's hard to be sure with a dearth of footage.

    I have Jeanette over McVey.

    My impression is that Jeanette did better in their prime meetings, the press of the era seems to rank Jeanette higher of the two for that period, although this is based upon press used in the Iron Man bio of Jeanette, which wasn't great and may even have been biased.
     
    McGrain, Jun 20, 2014
    McGrain, Jun 20, 2014
    #20
  6. mattdonnellon

    mattdonnellon Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I dunno, I see the McVea-Jeannette scraps as pretty even and Sam did better I think v Wills and Langford. Also less unexpected defeats.
    BTW I see primes as from when a guy hits world class till he fades, typically eight or so years and peak as a year or two, maybe as short as one fight.
     
    mattdonnellon, Jun 20, 2014
    mattdonnellon, Jun 20, 2014
    #21
  7. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    You have posed interesting questions here M.D ,and I would like some more input before trying to come to a definitive opinion.
     
    mcvey, Jun 20, 2014
    mcvey, Jun 20, 2014
    #22
  8. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    I think Sharkey had more talent than Schmeling, but lacked consistancy. Jeannette dropped decisions to people that McVey would not have, imo. Johnson named him as his toughest opponent out of the three black contempories he met. He may have had reasons to discount Langford but I believe him regarding Joe J. of course we are taking on trust that the respective records of the original Murderers Row did not feature handcuff fights at any time ,nor," I wont hurt you, if you don't hurt me ,"arrangements.
     
    mcvey, Jun 20, 2014
    mcvey, Jun 20, 2014
    #23
  9. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    An old mate of mine was at the first Cooper Folley fight ,he felt Cooper won it without argument.

    Cooper said that after Folley put him down he went right hand crazy , trying to repeat it , and allowed him to get back in the fight.
     
    mcvey, Jun 20, 2014
    mcvey, Jun 20, 2014
    #24
  10. mattdonnellon

    mattdonnellon Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I've heard that too. Folley did savage Henry in the return. As an aside Coopers stock seems to have plummeted on this form recently, people forget the Mildenberger, Cooper, Folley, Bugner fights etc.
    Johnson was friends with McVea-the original-so I'd be careful. On the other hand Jeannette and McVea wern't friendly so I doubt if they had arrangements but if you add Wills and Langford into the equation I too am a bit dubious of some of their round-robins.
     
    mattdonnellon, Jun 20, 2014
    mattdonnellon, Jun 20, 2014
    #25
  11. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    I was at Wembley for the Mildenberger v Cooper fight.Cooper dominated it Mildenberger looked fleshy and butted his way out of the fight.
    Johnson and McVey were close friends. Jeannette wasn't close to any of his black contempories. Johnson and Langford detested each other. but I think Wills , Mcvey and Langford sometimes tempered their aggression in the ring with each other.
     
    mcvey, Jun 20, 2014
    mcvey, Jun 20, 2014
    #26
  12. mattdonnellon

    mattdonnellon Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Working tomorrow but to sign off this thought. Sharkey fought his prime years from '25 and the Weinert loss to the 1933 Carnera loss with about 32 fights in between and lost to Schmeling, foul, Risko, split and Dempsey amid some controversy.
    Wills, Godfrey, Schmeling, Carnera, Maloney, Risko, Stribling, Heeney, Walker, Delaney, McTigue and Loughran were among his opponents. Sounds like a remarkable consistent run to me especially as most of the other fighters were fringe contenders too. Just challenging the perceived, casual wisdom.
     
    mattdonnellon, Jun 20, 2014
    mattdonnellon, Jun 20, 2014
    #27
  13. edward morbius

    edward morbius Boxing Addict Full Member

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    The fight with Liston was on 7-13-1960. The KO lost to Lavorante was on 5-11-1961. That is only ten months apart, with two victories in between. Why exactly was one prime and one non-prime?

    Folley followed the loss to Lavorante with wins over Cooper, DeJohn, Cleroux, and Jones

    prior to being stopped by Jones on 12-5-1962

    I might be wrong, but I think other than the victory over Machen, the wins over Cooper and Cleroux were his two wins over the highest rated fighters Folley defeated at the time he defeated them. Both were rated in the top five, I think.

    After Jones, Folley went on another long winning streak--except for a decisive points loss to Terrell--lasting until the Ali fight.

    I think one could make a good case that the reason he lost to Liston, Jones, and Terrell is simply because they were better than the fighters he was beating, Machen aside. Lavorante is a special case of a tall fighter with a good right who could exploit Folley's chin weakness.
     
    edward morbius, Jun 20, 2014
    edward morbius, Jun 20, 2014
    #28
  14. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    It is based upon my judgement of the fighter, his results, and what I can learn about him by reading press reports. To a degree, it is arbitrary. I have read before that Folley "was not the same" after his devastating loss to Liston. You yourself have assigned Johansson's prime as likely being ended by a brutal knockout he suffered.

    In Folley's case there is more evidence than in Johansson's case. He went 50-3 before meeting Liston and 11-3-1 after it. He took 53 fights to gather three losses prior to Liston and 15 fights to gather three losses after it.

    Additionally, Lavorante was far and away the worst fighter up until that point to beat Folley after his having entered his prime. Next, we have Folley's breakneck schedule (Relative to a more modern counterpart). Sixty fights is a lot for a heavy. Finally, he entered his thirties at around this point. That's not old, but it is an age where a reactions based defence can begin to slip.

    More losses in fewer fights, losing to opposition not typically expected to defeat a fighter, reports of a fighters diminishing, these are all red-flags. Having said that, I don't have enough footage to make a final determination about Folley's exact nature post-Liston. But if i'm interested in this fighter's arch I can say one of two things: he isn't past-prime until I can see it on film, which would be the Doug Jones fight about a year later than I am presuming. That's reasonable too.

    OR, I can try to make a reasoned determination based upon the evidence to hand and the presumption that most heavies don't have a peak longer than five years (five years is very rare actually). I apply this method evenly and i'm satisfied with it, just as i'm satisfied that i'll be wrong (and could be wrong here).

    I don't expect anyone else to adopt my position, but when i've done my homework I won't see it dismissed out of hand, either.
     
    McGrain, Jun 20, 2014
    McGrain, Jun 20, 2014
    #29
  15. edward morbius

    edward morbius Boxing Addict Full Member

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    "I don't expect anyone else to adopt my position, but when I've done my homework, I won't see it dismissed out of hand, either."

    I am not dismissing your position out of hand. You make a reasonable case, but you must admit there is another way of looking at this.

    Folley had a better statistical record prior to the Liston fight, but it is not unreasonable to question whether a man is past his best especially when he goes on to a long career and a lot of big wins afterward.

    Prior to Liston, Folley beat Machen, Valdes, King, Besmanoff, Miteff, Bethea, and the amateur champion Rademacher. There probably are a couple of others.

    After Liston he beat Cooper, DeJohn, Cleroux, Jones, Daniels, Chuvalo, Zech, Bonavena, Bob Foster, and Clark.

    Machen aside, I don't see much of a clear cut advantage to the first group.

    Even this won-lost stuff is a bit stacked. In the five years prior to fighting Liston, he had lost three times and drawn twice. In the seven years after Liston up to the Ali fight he lost three times and fought two draws. His record was 23-3-2.

    It is obvious that some fighters seem to take punches better before being stopped. Johansson was down only once in his first 21 fights, for I think a flash knockdown. He was down twice, and in trouble, in two of his last four after Patterson. Was this the result of the Patterson KO? Possible. But I can't really dispute anyone that much who argues "who knows?" But it could be true that Folley was never the same after Liston chin-wise. On the other hand, it is possible both men always had weak chins and just ran into guys who had the power and ability to reach them.

    *Just an aside on Lavorante--I think he is kind of a mystery man. His early loss in his fifth fight to the highly rated Harris means nothing. He went on to knock out Folley and beat a number of fringe contenders to rise high in the ratings, then lost a very disputed decision to George Logan in Logan's home town. He scored another knockout but was then badly beaten by Moore and Ali with tragic long-term results.
     
    edward morbius, Jun 20, 2014
    edward morbius, Jun 20, 2014
    #30
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