"Ray ducked me. George Gainford (Ray's manager) admitted that much. But, I can't say I blame him. There wasn't no money in us fighting each other. All we would have done is knock each other off." "You know, to me the most remarkable thing about Ray's career is that he didn't even get a shot at the welterweight title til he was 26- or the middleweight title til' he was 30! You think he was the greatest? What do you think he'd a been if he'd gotten his chances when he deserved them? You wanna know the truth? If I coulda' got my shot, I wouldn't have risked it fighting someone like Ray." It's from the chapter "Robinson Ducks" in this book: http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51qhwuOgwgL._SS260_.jpg
ray wasnt mob controlled, that is why he didnt get a shot sooner. he would have gotten a shot at the lightweight crown as well..........he could have been lightweight champ easily by the time he was 21. but as i said: he wasnt in bed with the mob.
I liked Burley's honesty that he didn't personally blame Ray and that he would've done the same thing.
At least he beat the lightweight champ in a non-title bout, within a year of his pro debut. That's very impressive
One of the biggest kept secrets in boxing is Walker Smith also used the color line. Sugar Ray hardly fougth any black men for the title. The first good one he fought at midleweight beat him. Sugar Ray Robinson vs Charlie Burley, Holand Williams, Eddie Booker or Lloyd Marshall would have been great fights. That said I still think SRR is #1 pound for pound at his best weight of 147.
This is a terrible post. None of these men were ever in Robinson's weight class. Burley, Williams, and Booker were middleweights when he was a welterweight. Marshall was the #1 lightheavyweight contender when Robinson was a welterweight. Do you criticize Willie Pep for not fighting Ike Williams or Robinson? Robinson won the title from Tommy Bell in an elimination in 1946. He defended against Bernard Docusen and Kid Gavilan and when he went into the middleweight division in 1950, he defended his Pennsylvania championship against Jose Basora, before winning the real championship from LaMotta and defending against Turpin. Burley was actually the #1 contender for the welterweight title when Henry Armstrong was champion. Few ever mention Armstrong fighting Burley but focus on Robinson, a smaller man than Burley at the time the time the two would have fought and who would have had to jump a weight class. and in fact was not yet even champion.
Kid Gavilan was black. I think Robinson should have fought Cocoa kid or holman williams when they were welterweights in early 1940s, he could have fought burley but charley was heavier. Then again, so was lamotta.
"God asked me and Ray: 'who wants to be Sugar?' and I guess I didn't put my hand up fast enough." - Charley Burley.
This point is weak as the Cocoa Kid and Holman Williams were not the highest rated black welterweights during the forties. Henry Armstrong, Jackie Wilson, Tommy Bell, Bernard Docusen, Kid Gavilan, and George Costner ranked higher and ranked longer and Robinson defeated them all.
This is a fair point; and yet the two fighters Sugar ducked most savegely were The Cocoa Kid and Charley Burley. I can't find much concerning Sugar's thoughts/opinions on Holman Williams, how about you OF? Q? Anyone? Thread Stealer - I think you've picked the right passage for quotation. Burley was an honest character (obviously), and I personally believe what he's saying in a wider sense. I also think he would have given RObinson clean hell.
A few things here. Firstly, Burley-Robinson was all but on late 1946. I'm guessing the fight would have been held at MW, though Burley quite possibly still could have made the WW limit though he was fighting mostly at around 160 by this time. Robinson, who, at that time, wa fighting for purses of between 7 and 12,000 dollars, supposedly doubled his demands for a Burley fight from a career best payday of 25k to 50k. Now that only means one thing in this business, doens't it? Burley had just mashed a light-heavyweight contender and huge puncher in Billy Smith. As with his one and only New York jaunt, it's my guess that he looked to good doing it and hurt his chances at a bigger fight (it's said Burley looked far better in the rematch than the first match - perhaps because there was no reason to let Smith think he would have a chance in the next one). The fight fell through, but by the beginning of the following year the money, and more HAD been put together. But Robinson, LaMotta and Cerdan all declined the career's best payday (LaMotta on the matter: "What do I need Burley for when I have Zivic?). I think you make a fair point about size differential, although it should be noted that Burley's various managers had been trying to make that fight for YEARS before terms were finally agreed. Whilst Armstrong and Zivic are both perhaps more shameless in their ducks, the Robinson one is there for anyone who cares to take a look. As for Cocoa Kid, Robinson was actually scheduled to meet with him at a charity funciton. Robinson, upon hearing the name of his illustrious opponent, up until then a mystery to him, ducked out. Fair enough actually; Roy Jones wouldn't have fought James Toney on one hours notice. But perhaps Robinson should have gone back and cleared up that particular mess?
You're a wealth of information concerning Burley, McGrain. Any decent literature about the man you can point me to?
Thanks for saying so. Rosenfeld's The Life And Times of an Uncrowned Champion is really, really strong on the era. For example the LaMotta quote, "what do I need Burley for when I got Zivic" comes from this extraordinary book - read this one and you'll come out the back an awful lot wiser about all of these guys, Williams, Cocoa Kid and of course, Charley Burley. Although it's pretty readable, it's also very dense - I think it would be of only limited value if you were after a casual read, I think that to get teh best out of this book you need to take a few notes about the stuff that is of interest to you, because it is unlikley you'll be able to find what your after when you come to the book. Lighter, though also very good is Otty's book, as quoted in the opening post. Otty was championing Burley for years before the book, and his website http://www.charleyburley.com/index.htm is a great place to start finding out about Burley, as well as the rest of the Murderer's Row. Otty is particularly strong on Eddie Booker, which is good, because Rosenfeld is perhaps a bit weak on him. Anyway, the Otty book is a great read, and is especially strong on the Robinson duck - but Otty may be an overly sympathetic narrator, though it's understandable. He went to the trouble of tracking Charley down and speaking with him, right at the end, when it seemed basically nobody in the sport was interested (Aside from Moore and Futch). If you go for Rosenfeld, you will be furious by the end of the book when Allen outlines how little interest the world of boxing had in Charley's passing. It's a great shame that his friends had to do the legwork to get his passing noticed, even in publications like The Ring. Burley has a MySpace page, too, which is interesting, the Billy Smith film is embedded there.
Ta mate. I'll definiitely be checking out those sources you gave me. For some reason, I find the idea of Burley with a Myspace page highly amusing...probably because of the irony.
It's a deeply surreal page. The musical peice under "about me" may leave your jaw hanging...relevant? I still can't be sure.
