Charley Burley or Holman Williams?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Manassa, Aug 29, 2009.


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  1. Manassa

    Manassa - banned

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    It's been said forever that Burley was the uncrowned champion, and that Williams had a good case too - but perhaps he was second best after Burley.

    This record comparison would suggest otherwise (all fighters were rated by The Ring at one point or another):

    Charley Burley

    Cocoa Kid
    Jimmy Leto
    Nate Bolden
    Antonio Fernandez
    Jack Chase (x3)
    Aaron Wade (x3)
    Joe Carter
    Billy Smith (x2)
    Bert Lytell

    Billy Soose
    Holman Williams (x3)
    Archie Moore
    Fritzie Zivic (x2)

    --------------------

    Holman Williams

    Battling Gizzy
    Lew Massey
    Tony Falco
    Cocoa Kid (x3)
    Slugger White
    Bobby Pacho
    Saverio Turiello
    Jack Portney
    Steve Mamakos
    Izzy Jannazzo
    Joe Legon
    Antonio Fernandez (x2)
    Jimmy Leto
    Jose Basora (x3)
    Kid Tunero (x3)
    Joe Carter (x2)
    Lloyd Marshall (x2)
    Eddie Booker
    Steve Belloise
    Jack Chase (x4)
    Paul Lewis
    Aaron Wade (x2)
    Bert Lytell
    George Henry
    Bob Satterfield
    Henry Hall

    Charley Burley (x3)
    Archie Moore

    --------------------

    Obviously they are only the statistics, there will be a degree of subjectivity in here (with any luck).

    Thoughts?
     
    Manassa, Aug 29, 2009
    Manassa, Aug 29, 2009
    #1
  2. Mr Butt

    Mr Butt Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    manassa did'nt williams fight cocoa kid a lot more than burley not winning the majority

    also when burley and williams fought in i think 43, it is down as a no contest i am not sure but is it true that the tenth round did not finish and the ref stopped the fight due to not enough action
     
    Mr Butt, Aug 29, 2009
    Mr Butt, Aug 29, 2009
    #2
  3. cotto20

    cotto20 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I think it was lloyd marshall not williams or burley who was the uncrowned champion
     
    cotto20, Aug 29, 2009
    cotto20, Aug 29, 2009
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  4. My2Sense

    My2Sense Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Burley gets a big push from praise given by certain of his contemporaries, ie: Eddie Futch, Archie Moore. He was a great fighter, but I don't agree that he really distinguished himself as the best of the "Murderer's Row" like many people now claim. I think Williams, Marshall, Bivins, and perhaps even Booker were all roughly as good as him, and in some cases perhaps even better.
     
    My2Sense, Aug 29, 2009
    My2Sense, Aug 29, 2009
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  5. GPater11093

    GPater11093 Barry Full Member

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    I agree after researching more i think Williams is as good as Burley and perhaps has a better claim to being the 'uncrowned' champion. Has alot more depth in his record IMO.

    Just think Burley captured afew peoples imagination (Futch and Moore etc..) and got alot of praise thats kept on
     
    GPater11093, Aug 29, 2009
    GPater11093, Aug 29, 2009
    #5
  6. Manassa

    Manassa - banned

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    Holman Williams had a lot of trouble with his hands and couldn't hit people as hard as he liked. He mastered the uppercut though, because the angle of the punch didn't aggravate the weakness. He was probably a better boxer than Burley but not quite the puncher.
     
    Manassa, Aug 29, 2009
    Manassa, Aug 29, 2009
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  7. PowerPuncher

    PowerPuncher Loyal Member Full Member

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    I'm not sure if he was ring rated and I don't know how to check, but Burley also beat:

    Shorty Hogue (52-4-2) -beat Moore (x2), Pacho, Booker, Romero

    Holman is certainly an underrated great HOWEVER Burley was a bit more dominant against like opponents. Holman lost more often than not to Cocoa Kid who Burley certainly got the better of. A few others Burley seemed to either beat more comprehensively or get better results against. For instance Burley beat Moore more emphatically (pardon the pun). Holman also had more tha ntwice the fights Burley had so he will naturally have faced more contenders
     
    PowerPuncher, Aug 29, 2009
    PowerPuncher, Aug 29, 2009
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  8. Manassa

    Manassa - banned

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    I thought Hogue would have been rated as well along with his ironically smaller twin brother 'Big Boy', but I found neither of them anywhere. They were a pair of formidable fighters, but not part of the murderer's row.

    Your other points are valid, it's that sort of discussion I was looking for. I'm just providing the records.
     
    Manassa, Aug 29, 2009
    Manassa, Aug 29, 2009
    #8
  9. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    This is the bottom line.

    It depends upon how you weigh the thing. But the admiration Burley generated in contemporaries goes beyond the two given as examples here; he was the most admired of the fighters that made up the murderer's row, and also the most ducked, which tells it's own story.

    You can rate Williams above Burley without fear of contradiction from me or anyone else I should say, but my own read is that Burley was the superior fighter.
     
    McGrain, Aug 29, 2009
    McGrain, Aug 29, 2009
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  10. Minotauro

    Minotauro Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Burley has the books and the Robinson duck which is why people rank him higher. There is very little separating the two despite going 3-3-1 with each other Burley seemed to get the better slightly. However Holman has the better resume. I've always preferred Holman so I give him the title of uncrowned champ. Bivins and Marshall also deserve a mention.
     
    Minotauro, Aug 29, 2009
    Minotauro, Aug 29, 2009
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  11. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Burley has more than the Robinson duck. He has the Armstrong duck and the LaMotta duck and (probably) the Cerdan duck and (laterly) the Zivic duck. Top men were pretty consistant about wanting nothing to do with him.

    They went 3-3-0-1 and that's probably a fair reflection of what lay between then - nothing - but like Minotauro says, Burley probably got the better overall and was unlucky not to come away with a better bag or results.
     
    McGrain, Aug 30, 2009
    McGrain, Aug 30, 2009
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  12. PowerPuncher

    PowerPuncher Loyal Member Full Member

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    I thought it was you or someone else who said Burley should have got 1 of the Holman decisions he didnt get either the NC or 1 of the losses could/should have gone either way....
     
    PowerPuncher, Aug 30, 2009
    PowerPuncher, Aug 30, 2009
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  13. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Of the three Burley lost, one was a fight that seems to have been a fight that could have gone either way, and one was the fight he most firmly dominated (three KD's) before throwing his shoulder and picking up only one of the remaining six rounds.

    The NC was going his way and I think it was a travesty that it was thrown out.

    Not trying to take anything away form Holman in real terms; I still feel it's 3-3-0-1 but in a thread like this it's probably relevant.
     
    McGrain, Aug 30, 2009
    McGrain, Aug 30, 2009
    #13
  14. SLAKKA

    SLAKKA Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Keep in mind if Holman was born in 1912 he first became Champion material at 135lb.
     
    SLAKKA, Aug 30, 2009
    SLAKKA, Aug 30, 2009
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  15. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    Where can I watch footage of Holman Williams?
     
    Unforgiven, Aug 31, 2009
    Unforgiven, Aug 31, 2009
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