Charley Burley vs. Harold Johnson

No, he wouldn't have. But he would have a had a resume that good, and better, if, in the golden age of WW/MW boxing, Burley hadn't been so entirely ducked by the "leading" fighters of the era.

I thought we were talking about who's better.

I'm nothing like an expert on Williams, but I do know that Louis and Futch were less than alone in rating him as one of the best ever. Many who fought him/saw him rated him very very highly. As to his resume, he beat numerous great fighters, as well you know. The only guys to really get the better of him were Cocoa Kid and Burley. You're looking to the end of his career before he really starts dropping losses - also before he starts getting greats into the ring! Williams was trying to corner LaMotta for years and was supposed to be washed up when he finally got Jake into the ring. Still, despite the fact that LaMotta is literally the sytlistic nightmare for an old fighter and despite the fact that most posters on this site would pick LaMotta to beat Williams peak for peak, LaMotta eeked out a split decision that saw the action fighter roundly booed by a clearly knowledgable crowd. It's weird. If I'm honest, i'll point to this loss as a sign of Williams greatness abvove many of his wins.

As for his win resume, it is deep and contains many great fighters. You will no doubt see them all as overated, however. He did beat Moore in 45 or 46, which i presume you see as pre peak - though this fight is post Burley.

Manassa, it is really no coincidence that Moore didn't go back and take on Burley/Williams/Marshall and the like once he had crossed over. These fights were harder than many of the fights he took once he was mainstream. He'd treaded the ground (give him his due) but writing of these losses as being suffered by "young Archie Moore" as if he was not yet the man that Charles beat is disingenuos at best.

Why?! Unless you're asserting that Cokes is a great boxer puncher, why should he be allowed into the ring with Williams? As for Rodriguez, yes, he is great, but Burley is my #2 (3 wins for Williams) i also do not dismiss his win over Moore as readily as you (an all time top 12 fighter, p4p), Marshall scraped into my top 20 LHW's last time I did one (might not now right enough, he was low teens and I learned a lot), I rate Chase, and Booker sounds like a world class fighter too.

I have Williams below Napoles but firmly in his class. I wouldn't be laying money if they met.

OK.

The Archie Moore that Burley beat is better than George Benton as far as I am concerned. I need to see the opposite proven a sane assertion before i'm up for really engaging with it.

Nothing wrong with Cokes. But when you tell me you think he is better than Williams we have to part ways.

I think I had Walker at 3 - I think Burley would batter him - and Leonard at 4. Leonard is a reasonable pick to beat Burley.

Nice how?! Are you disputing that Burley was avoided? If not, why was he avoided? He was avoided because he was so good. So Burley fought other men - who, like him, couldn't get crossed over - often, because they were avoided. They made very little money, often fought above ideal weight, took fights on short (Sometimes no) notice, and travelled the day they fought to save money. There is nothing nice about that circle.

Possible. It seems to me the evidence to hand does not suggest this is the case though. Perhaps they are as good as I think they were, and better than you think they are.

Sinister!

 

Shame! I love it.

No, I really don't, at least not as a priority. But you do need to make your position about Cokes clear so I can understand what you are saying. Perhaps I could even learn from experience.

This remark seems to suggest you do see Cokes as a "Great boxer puncher" as oppsed to good, or a great counter puncher, or whatever it is, but I can't be sure.

In the meantime, you need to re-dress your jerk circle theory.

 

This much we can agree upon then, although i'm not sure about "deluxe".

 

Cokes is a soft touch

How do you think he would do now? Belt holder?