When defining chin, do you as an analyst put more weight on punch resistance or on recuperative ability? Is chin an combination of both? Do you throw away the notion of chin entirely and break them down into seperate categories? I'm very curious to see some of the responses.
Combination for me. But when you get really inredible punch resistance - McCall, Hagler, Tiger, that's the pinacle because these boys just don't get hurt. If I had to plump for one or the other I would go for recuperative. I'd point to the differences between Tyson and Foreman to defend this position. Tyson probably has better pure punch resistance, but hard shots take his starch, right down to the way he actually fights. Foreman just gets up and gets set.
Intresting question, would have to say a mixture of the two, i certainly wouldn't say someone has a bad chin just because they get knocked down (a good current example of this is gamboa, he's been knocked down a few times but i've never really seen him look hurt so wouldn't say he has a bad chin at the moment though he may have). I think the main thing that i look at still when rating chins is punch resistance but if a fighter recuperates well then i would factor that in.
Foreman brings up yet another subset of chin. Stamina. Foreman's chin was directly linked with his stamina, as is the case with most fighters. Would a fighter with a constant B level chin no matter what his stamina be considered to have a better chin than someone like foreman who's chin was A level with stamina, but C-D level when exhuasted?
:think Great chin, but he's a member of a group of fighters in the all time devastating KO high light reel.
Bruno, Ruddock, Tucker all hit him with very good shots and Tyson did not lose his starch at all. You're ignoring the confounder: when Tyson was taking hard shots from Douglas & Holyfield - he was *already* confused and unable to do anything as they were outboxing him. He wasn't fighting because he was too busy getting owned. He was already starched down so of course he wasn't going to improve his performance! Had Tyson been winning the fight or beating up Buster or Holyfield, took a hard shot and *then* got starched down, I would see your point. The Lewis fight is one example I'm willing to ignore for good reasons. Yet Tyson gets his head snapped back in a very good round 6 from Ruddock yet goes on to dominate / win round 7 (controversial stoppage). If your theory was true then Tyson should have been starched down. Those shots from Ruddock didn't look much because it was Tyson - surely you've seen Razer's KO reel. I've given you three very good contradictory examples and explained the confounder for what appear to be but are not good supportive examples (Buster & Holy). This is a fascinating question that in order to be answered will require another question first but that is a thread of its own. Why are some fighters able to take a punch better than others? A KO is when the brain gets shaken around too much or blood circulation to the brain is slowed down for a short time. Is it perhaps good luck in how the blood vessels network themselves in the fighter .e.g some fighters have blood vessel networks that are more shielded by the skull than others. Just a thought. Stuff like short legs or being low gravity for better balance done appear quite as significant to me. It's just so complicated with many factors / confounders that there is no simple answer. Maybe tomorrow I'll give it another thought. Tough question.
Not really. That fight shouldn't have even happened. It was like an adult fighting a child. Too much of a difference in size. But we digress! :think
Sure, way past his prime, having run his only less than proffessional training camp ever, possibly suffering the onset of liver cancer, 15lbs above his best weight against the hardest hitting light-heavy of all time and possibly the hardest hitting fighter ever p4p.
The short answer for me is that "Chin" is more "punch resistance" than "recuperative ability". Recuperative ability seems to have as much to with conditioning and heart, although if the lights go out, the lights go out. I see tiers, and for what their worth I'll summarize them: Third Tier Those fighters who don't get KOd, and rarely dropped, but when dropped, get up and continue fighting. They shake off the effects of the blow. Consistent Qualities: supremely conditioned, much heart, often great reflexes. Examples: Marciano, Ali, Robinson, Gavilan Second Tier These are the fighters who take serious shots and don't go down. Typically, they stand there smiling, or otherwise posture... Consistent Qualities: Square builds. Shock-absorber necks. Example: Chuvalo, Mercer, Cobb, Canzonari First Tier These are the supreme chins. They never get dropped, take serious shots and don't go down, but they continue on without pause as if the shot never landed. Consistent Qualities: They're rare guys, these ones... but I'll deduce that they are supremely conditioned, have much heart, and perhaps have reflexes that allow them to minutely roll just enough.... the rest is mystery. Example: Marvin Hagler
