Chris Byrd - Could He Have Beaten Wilder?

Byrd got caught with a lot of flush punches for a guy whose defense gets praised.

 

"Lol claiming Hearn signed him to keep him away"

Of course he did, he did the same to former Matchroom fighter Michael Hunter. They could have given him the decision that most thought he deserved against Povetkin but didn't have his back (imagine if that had been Joshua or Whyte instead of Hunter, actually you don't because they got given almost every round against Povetkin), then had 40+ Povetkin (the consensus loser) fight Whyte. Because Hunter was (rightly or wrongly) considered more dangerous.

The same almost happened to Usyk: most observers had Chisora winning 3-4 rounds, Matchroom judges gave him (a perpetual B-side under normal circumstances) 5 rounds. Because gold medallist and undisputed cruiser champ Usyk, who was a Matchroom fighter at the time, was seen as a threat to Joshua.

They signed a dangerous but unknown Cuban in 2016 in order to keep him away from their core stable, feed him creampuffs like Allen and age him out. It was 100% Matchroom skulduggery. Stylistically and in terms of level he was a massive threat to Joshua, not to mention Whyte and Hearn knew it.

"Ortiz has done nothing really of note in his career except a good win over Jennings"

That can easily happen when you're avoided by the likes of Povetkin, Joshua and everyone else until you're on the cusp of 39.

"Haye, Ibragimov, Chagaev, Povetkin"

Chagaev and Povetkin ducked Ortiz, Ibragimov (who drew with Austin) ducked Tony Thompson and Haye no doubt would have ducked Ortiz. This is what Haye's trainer had to say about him in 2018:

"Ortiz is the one nobody wants to talk about," says Adam Booth, former coach of WBA heavyweight champion David Haye. “I remember Mickey Duff, when offered an opponent, would always ask two questions: Is he a southpaw? Can he punch? Well, with Ortiz, you’ve got a southpaw who can punch. He’s also fearless and big. He looks to be pretty tough, too. I think everybody is hoping he gets very old very quickly.”

"use ridiculous triangle theories"

Going more rounds doesn't mean that you performed worse, that's why I didn't claim that Ortiz outperformed Wlad against Jennings for instance. There are other factors to consider, like pointfighting and defence and a fighter can display superior power while going more rounds if he's less aggressive or lower volume. Ortiz was outperforming Joyce, Pulev, Takam, Chisora, Whyte and Parker against mutual opponents in terms of power, pointfighting and defence prior to the Hammer fight, by which point he was three fights worth of wear and aging removed from Wilder 1.

"Lewis beating Holyfield, even a version who was past his best years"

Skilled southpaw puncher 30-0 Ortiz would have probably beaten former 190 pounder Holyfield, who'd gone 1-1 with former LHW southpaw Moorer and was about to go 50-50 over three fights with J. Ruiz.

"Arreola is simply not in the conversation as one of Vitali's best wins. Stiverne has looked terrible in every big fight he's been in"

Arreola is somewhere in Vitali's top 10 wins. He was battered but pushed Vitali more than most because he's durable, determined, with a good engine. Stiverne looked good in both Arreola fights and to some extent against Wilder, who he took 12. He fell off after that, though still took Joyce 6 post-Wilder 2.

 

"How can you claim Joshua was ducking him"

Because Hearn and Joshua ducked him when he was a Matchroom fighter. They were happy to let the 37/38 year old rot on the vine, battering the likes of Allen.

"but he’s done nothing in his career to suggest he could do that"

LHW Moorer had done nothing in his career to suggest he'd beat Holyfield and he'd looked significantly worse than Ortiz at heavyweight but stylistically he was a problem for Holyfield, who admitted to not liking southpaw boxers.

"not had many elite level performances, I don’t think he’s a batter fight than Povetkin, Haye"

He's had more impressive performances relative to mutual opponents than Povetkin (who ducked him) or Haye (who certainly would have, as his trainer implied).

"For me he would stop Ortiz"

Holyfield's HW stoppage record prior to 40 was 12/27. 37+ Holyfield certainly wouldn't have stopped Ortiz, he hadn't stopped anyone since the genuinely chinny Moorer in their rematch 2 years prior and would never drop or stop anyone of note again.

"You cannot blame Ortiz’s lack of big fights solely on ducking"

It was largely due to ducking, it's no coincidence that he only started getting big fights on the cusp of 39 and after. Had Ortiz had powerful backers he would have found it a lot easier getting name opponents in the ring with him well before then. Being born in Cuba was also a problem as he was 30+ before he turned pro.

 

"Moorer achieved way more in his career than Ortiz"

What had Moorer done before he beat Holyfield (your standard) to say he'd beat him? He was a pumped up LHW going life and death with journeymen. The Holyfield who had gone 12 with Bean and was about to go 36 with J. Ruiz in competitive fights wasn't beating Ortiz imo, let alone stopping him.

Of course Ortiz didn't achieve much; he was heavily avoided until he was virtually 39. You are probably not going to achieve much if you are avoided to that degree by the Povetkin's and the Joshua's after turning pro at 30+, other than looking more impressive than most of your rivals against those who are willing to fight you.

"You are now claiming Haye would have ducked Ortiz based on what?"

Based on what Haye's trainer said about Ortiz and Haye's career. He ducked Cunningham despite that fight conferring the undisputed cruiser championship and ducked Fury, damaging his reputation, wasting a training camp, sacrificing a £5 million payday and the chance to beat Fury, who he was a 75-25 favourite to beat (as well as the option of an ultra-lucrative rematch if he was beaten while cut in a war), in order to pull out just a week in advance of their scheduled fight. Haye would have 100% ducked Ortiz and his best win (Chisora) would have been 50-50 with Jennings had they fought.

"It makes 0 sense to claim Joshua was ducking Ortiz this whole time, he tried to fight him"

Joshua is a low IQ fighter who gets told what to do by his promoter. His promoter was very reluctant to fight Ortiz, saying things like "if it makes sense, we'll do it" and threatening legal action to avoid the fight. Why did they "rob" (your words) Hunter? Why did they almost rob Usyk? Because they were regarded as unnecessary risks for Joshua relative to the Pulev's, the Takam's and the Parker's. They, along with Ortiz (who was likely the lowest priority as the least commercial and biggest puncher), were signed by Matchroom in order to control them.

 

"Valuev was a better opponent"

I said Chisora to give Haye the benefit of the doubt. I'm not sure Valuev could have reliably beaten Malik Scott without a gift decision, let alone Jennings.

"baseless theories about Matchroom"

Cool, defend corruption.

"Haye would have knocked Ortiz spark out"

Booth and Haye wouldn't have even fought Ortiz, let alone beat him.

"This is boxing robberies happen all the time"

Strange how they gave core Matchroom fighters Joshua and Whyte nearly all of the rounds against Povetkin, even a few the public had them losing, but gave Hunter a draw against consensus and then gave Povetkin the shot at Whyte instead. This was no accident; Hunter simply didn't have Matchroom's support despite being their fighter on paper, like Ortiz, like Usyk. Regardless of Usyk's underperformance vs Chisora, the consensus was Usyk won 8-9 rounds, not 7. They were very close to doing another Hunter.

"Michael Hunter is the same guy who nearly lost to Forrest."

Not at the time he wasn't: he was the guy who stopped Bakole in Britain as a clear underdog, schooled and dropped Kuzmin.

You're giving Mitch a run for his money as a Matchroom shill at this point.

 

"Scott beating Valuev"

Valuev would likely get a controversial/gift decision, as he got against an old Donald who was coming off a draw with Austin, or a fossilised Holyfield who had been schooled by Donald 4 years prior. 5 foot something plodder Chagaev outboxed Valuev, it's not an amazing accomplishment. For all his flaws, Scott was tall, rangy, fast and had good pedigree, beating Ibragimov in the amateurs, lots of experience sparring Lewis and Wlad. Only Ortiz outboxed him: Chisora had to come from behind to win, Glazkov got an A-side draw, Thompson lost 7-3.

"Ortiz largely damaged his own career"

He turned pro at 30 after leaving Cuba and was admittedly avoided by the likes of team Povetkin. If Povetkin's manager doesn't want to fight you, Hearn certainly won't. He'll sign you to waste/ruin your career though, as he did Hunter and tried to do Usyk.

"He's one of the most overrated heavyweights today"

Ortiz has been underrated ever since Wilder beat him, whereas other fighters without top wins, actual ducks and even less than fully committed/brave performances (Haye, Povetkin, Vitali) are overrated on this forum.

 

"Ortiz got dropped twice by Charles Martin"

Zhang got dropped by Juan Goode, big whoop. Ortiz was 42 years old with 398 career fights, got off the deck twice and banjoed Martin virtually with one shot, who was coming off a career best win over Washington and recently went the distance with highly touted prospect Anderson. There hasn't been a more significant victory by a 42+ year old heavyweight since Foreman KO'd Moorer. Getting off the floor, especially multiple times, to win a fight is a major test of recovery and character that Ortiz passed. Despite having little punch resistance at that advanced stage of his career, Ortiz showed excellent composure to come back and win. He didn't get drowned as Haye did vs 40+ Thompson, or swallow as Vitali did against Byrd.

Ortiz's power, pointfighting and defence were all clearly better than Joyce, Pulev, Takam, Chisora, Whyte and Parker from 2015-2018, making him a top 10 heavyweight of the 2010's. If Ortiz was so vulnerable then Povetkin's team wouldn't have admitted to ducking him, Chisora wouldn't have admitted it, Haye's trainer wouldn't have said he was the guy no one wants to fight etc.

"Valuev would land one big punch on Scott and he would go down"

Valuev couldn't stop Scott if Scott was ultra-defensive, no chance in hell. Valuev's best stoppage win was Barrett in 11, who was nowhere near as elusive as Scott and got KO'd early by nonentities. And judging by the Donald, Holyfield and Chagaev performances, there's a good chance that the lumbering Valuev wouldn't be able to legitimately outpoint Scott, who had the better of Glazkov and Thompson over 10.

"you still cannot dispute the fact Ortiz turned down career high money to fight AJ"

Even if it were 100% true as you've framed it, Ortiz fought Wilder in a rematch in his next fight 5 months later and fought Ruiz in his next fight over Hrgovic. If Ortiz had fought a journeymen then you'd have a leg to stand on but he didn't: both times he was the clear underdog in big or bigger fights. He was also the clear underdog in Wilder 1 when virtually 39, and fought in 8 nations as a pro, never at home. He was a perpetual B-side who was willing to take big risks, avoided for most of his career due to risk-reward.

Actual ducks: Haye of Cunningham (fought Barrett) and Fury (retired), Povetkin of Ortiz (fought Charr), Vitali of Byrd (fought Hoffmann).

 

When did Alexander Povetkin beat Luis Ortiz in the amateurs?

 

Wilder's right hand would eventually land in a southpaw like Byrd. Make no mistake about it, Byrd cannot box better than Tyson Fury did and still..... he got caught.

 

Ortiz not getting big fights is pretty typical for this era.
Oscar Rivas turned pro before Ortiz and didn't get to fight top contenders until 2019
Filip Hrgovic turned pro in 2017 didn't fight a top contender until Zhang in 2022 and isn't due a title shot until 2024.

If your going to claim Ortiz was ducked lots of guys have similar arguments. How is Ortiz not getting big fights earlier any different than Bakole/Hrgovic/Hunter failing to land fights with Joshua/Fury/Wilder in 2019/20/21

If Ortiz was being ducked than you could say the same about lots of other guys.

 

"That was Zhang's 6th pro fight"

So 32 year old Zhang gets a pass for being dropped by a far inferior heavyweight to Martin and scraping a decision because he had 6 pro fights after only 17 years in boxing and an extensive amateur career but Ortiz doesn't despite being 10 years older than Zhang was, with two brutal KO defeats to Wilder, a much higher mileage and getting up to destroy Martin regardless, something Anderson couldn't do. Ok then lol.

"Andersen is very very raw and is nowhere near the top"

He obliterated Jerry Forrest, who'd gone the distance with Pulev, Takam, Hunter x2 and Zhang himself, getting draws against two of them. Everyone expected him to destroy Martin, he was massively favoured to do so. No heavyweight since Foreman has a better win at an equal or more advanced age than Ortiz (42+), which suggests that it's not easy to do and even that was a chinny LHW. Not 40 like Povetkin and Vitali btw, in case you're going to struggle to tell the difference again. Povetkin at 41 was a pitifully degraded fighter who shouldn't have been in the ring, I'm not going to be a moron and say he sucks because of that, despite him getting beaten up in totally one-sided fashion.

"Joyce has a far better win on his resume than Ortiz in Parker"

Shame Joyce's coach admitted that he protected Joyce from a post-Wilder 1 Ortiz:

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Parker and Jennings is another 50-50 matchup, though Jennings performed far better against Joyce. Takam was life and death with Parker in New Zealand, they are much of a muchness.

"None of them would get dropped by a jab from Martin."

Let's see them get starched a couple of times by Wilder, age to 42, fight someone with power and we'll see how good their chins are.

Even at 43 Ortiz was dropped fewer times by Ruiz than 29 year old Joshua was and went 12 rounds with an argument for winning, rather than being stopped in 7.

Lewis was one-shotted twice by fringe contenders, Wlad was counted 16 times. But they were very successful, partly because they had powerful backers but largely because of their power, pointfighting and defence. Dave Allen had a phenomenal chin, far better than Lewis or Wlad but that along with his heart only made him a durable punching bag. Ortiz had more power, pointfighting ability and defence than almost everyone in the division from the time he turned pro to 2018, that was why he was so avoided. And if he got put down a couple of times as he was at 42 by Martin, he could get up composed and send you to mars with one shot anyway.

"Malik Scott is a known quitter who went down every time he got hit"

That's why he had 3 losses in 42 fights, because every time he got hit he went down! If you can outbox Thompson and Glazkov, you can probably outbox Valuev, who would have never got anywhere in boxing without consistently favourable/heavily biased officiating.

"That doesn't change the fact he had the chance"

Fighting an equal or more dangerous opponent for a world title and a chance to avenge your only defeat = not a duck

Fighting former unified titlist Ruiz over an unknown Croat whose best wins were decisions over Kevin and Sean Turner = not a duck

"We won't fight Ortiz for a WBA trinket, he's too dangerous. We'll fight Charr instead" - Povetkin's manager = duck

"I'm moving up to fight journeyman Barrett at heavy over unifying the cruiser division with Cunningham" - Haye = duck

"I'll let Wlad take care of Byrd for me, he matches up much better" - Vitali = duck

 

These duck claims don't make sense from a competitive standpoint though. If Joyce didn't fight Ortiz from fear of losing he wouldn't have fought Dubois or Zhang. If Povetkin didn't fight Ortiz due to fear of losing he wouldn't have fought Hunter or tried to fight Wilder.
Ortiz probably struggled to make big fights due to being somewhat dangerous and not a big draw but you can't reasonably infer he would have beaten all the guys who didn't fight him in favor of more lucrative opportunities. That's just silly.

 

Hunter is not Ortiz. Wilder brought a bigger check and a title, and he still screwed that up.

Ortiz was regarded as more dangerous than Zhang by a large margin until the Hrgovic fight at minimum.

 

Lol. "32 year old Zhang and Anderson were pro novices, so getting dropped by Goode and failing to stop Martin doesn't matter". But Ortiz getting dropped by twice by Martin at 42, with two brutal KO defeats to Wilder and 398 fights amateur and pro, and getting up to KO him is terrible, despite it being the best win by a 42+ year old heavyweight since Foreman.

Povetkin and Vitali were having serious trouble with Whyte and Chisora at 40 but they got the wins, just as Ortiz did vs Martin at 42. All of those performances were laudable.

"Joshua got dropped by Ruiz 4 times"

Exactly. Ortiz massively outperformed 29 year old Joshua at 43. I also don't think Joshua is that chinny: he survived the Wlad right hand, he hasn't been sparked out multiple times with one punch by randoms or anything like that.

"You simply cannot explain it"

I wasn't in Ortiz's training camp so I don't know if he was in the middle of a cycle or if he was injured or if PBC gave him an offer he couldn't refuse or whatever. But there is zero duck in fighting Wilder in a rematch and Ruiz over Joshua and Hrgovic. Fighting Barrett over unifying with Cunningham, Charr over Ortiz and Hoffmann over Byrd by contrast is ducking; seeking out weaker, less lucrative and rewarding opponents who you are a huge favourite against.

"guys who are bigger punchers than Ortiz"

Vitali and Briggs had nowhere near Ortiz's one-punch power. Tua did with his left hook but he was a 5'9, inactive, 20 lbs overweight plodder who Lewis fought safety first against.

"Dave Allen is not a good fighter"

Of course: that's why, if you read carefully, you'll see I referred to Allen as a punching bag. But he had a phenomenal chin, which shows the limitations of having a great chin. Ortiz had a decent chin when he was in his 30's (took some good hits from Wilder, came back to have him in trouble) but the reasons why he was ducked by Joyce, Povetkin etc. were his power, pointfighting ability and defence, among other things, which were superior to pretty much everyone in the division.

"absolute bs theories about Hearn signing Ortiz to prevent Joshua fighting him"

Hearn's got form for this, the Hunter situation being a perfect example. But you're apparently naïve enough to believe that they gave him a "robbery" (your words) draw against Povetkin by accident/incompetence! Funny how Joshua was given 4-5 rounds by the Matchroom judges, when many neutral observers had Povetkin even or ahead. Complete coincidence, A-side advantage doesn't exist in boxing. Also accidental how they gave typical B-side Chisora 5 rounds against Usyk, it's not like he was seen as a threat to be eliminated if possible.

Hearn didn't want Joshua fighting an unknown but skilled, mentally tough, vastly experienced, undefeated and hard punching Cuban southpaw if it could possibly be avoided. They knew that Cubans and southpaws gave Joshua big problems from his amateur days and that Ortiz was a massive risk. Light punchers like Pulev, Takam and Parker were the order of the day instead as if worst came to worst, they could be robbed. Ruiz (front foot counterpuncher, also trained by Cubans) was a miscalculation, he was seen as a pudding 25/1 underdog and far less dangerous than Ortiz. PBC likely saw him as an easy sacrificial lamb who'd just been offloaded on them by Arum.

 

"but he is not the big bad boogeyman you make out"

Remember when about ten fighters turned down the Hrgovic fight before they got to Zhang in the rankings? And Hrgovic's best wins were decisions over Kevin and Sean Turner, he'd not looked nearly as impressive as Ortiz (even at 3-0 Ortiz stopped Z. Page, which no one else did over a 44 fight streak, including a slew of contenders and champions) or beaten anyone remotely as good as Jennings, let alone in devastating fashion. Listen to people who know better, like Haye's trainer or Joyce's trainer or Povetkin's manager or Hearn. "No one wants to fight Ortiz" was the message, again and again.

Guys like It's Ovah were picking Ortiz to school and demolish Wilder and rating his performances against Jennings, Thompson and Scott very highly. It's only after the fact that they threw Ortiz under the bus, purely because he lost to Wilder and made them look foolish.

"If another fighter did what he did against Joshua you would see it differently"

I would not. If Ortiz had fought someone like Barrett, Charr or Hoffmann (as Haye, Povetkin and Vitali did) instead of Joshua on short notice then I would agree with you but he fought Wilder in a rematch on a full camp instead. No duck.

"Vitali and Briggs have some of the highest KO ratios in history and beat better men than Ortiz"

Darnell Boone had a very low KO ratio (even relatively low against those he beat at 54%) but was a massive puncher. Briggs in particular fought a huge number of bums. His best ever KO win was Liakhovich, who Jennings schooled and stopped. Vitali's best stoppage win may well have been Sanders, who had been KO'd by N. Tubbs and Rahman and would be KO'd in 1 by Machimana. Ortiz was a better and more proven puncher than either. Even Brighton bomber who strongly dislikes Ortiz has conceded that Ortiz is a huge puncher.

"as outstanding achievement."

If Martin was so chinny then Anderson would have stopped him like everyone else, Kownacki would have stopped him over 10 too. Joshua is a big puncher but Martin wasn't out of it as he was with one punch vs Ortiz, he was overwhelmed by the occasion after getting dropped and quit.

Povetkin and Vitali at 40 were having plenty of problems with Whyte and Chisora. Povetkin was getting dropped multiple times, losing nearly every round. Vitali was losing rounds, getting chased all over the ring, gassing, his body apparently starting to fail him and couldn't hurt or discourage 15/2 underdog Chisora at all. But like 42 year old Ortiz, they overcame adversity and won, which was impressive.

"You criticise guys like Lewis and Wlad but the truth is they are way more complete fighters than Ortiz"

Sure, they were better than Ortiz, who turned pro 7-10 years later and was kept out of the picture by ducking until virtually 39. But they ducked fights and got KO'd by worse fighters than Ortiz on five or six occasions, so criticisms you wrongly or harshly make of Ortiz can be applied to them to a greater degree. They also never fought anyone remotely like 6'6+, athletic, bronze medallist, GOAT right hand, long-reigning titlist Wilder, who Steward said was the best upcoming talent along with Fury, who he said was a serious threat to Wlad.