I'd like to hear from you about pressure, pace and head movement with regards to these swarmers. It's a given that everyone on this forum has different opinions of where they rank all time so no need to argue too much about placement. Elaborate please and tell me who's pressure, pace and head movement would be the most challenging IYO(in your opinion). Thanks. Jack Dempsey Rocky Marciano Floyd Patterson Jerry Quarry Joe Frazier Mike Tyson David Tua
In my opinion, Dempsey has the best head movement. People are going to say "Tyson", and I understand that, and he is spectacular in this department, but I Tyson had head movement which seemed designed to slip a specific punch - the jab - rather than specific shots as they are thrown. Tyson closes the distance beautifully, but I beleive that the right combination of ice in the veins and good timing could see him timed on the way across. His speed is what makes him. Dempsey is much more arbitrary, shuffling, ducking, there is no rhythym, he is a unique specimin, closing the distance in a way that makes him impossible to time. You have to hit him. He also, in my opinion, adjusts his head movement dependant on his angle of approach. He is lower when he is coming in straight for example, more given to a lean when he is coming in at an angle. I wonder, was this all natural? I doubt this extraordinary spatial awareness is something you learn.... Anyway, Frazier is the ryhthym based fighter. He could be timed. This is unfortuntate because he is less mobile than both of these other guys, but he is an airspace fighter. The important thing is to be on the man's chest, not to avoid punishment. Marciano may be the technically best of these guys. When you consider that he kept his chin in good position most of the time and that he tended to present the top of his head to his opponent (Read an interview with Hopkins lately where he claime to avoid punching the top of the opponetns head even with modern gloves) it seems hard to deny...Marciano is underated technically, he is better than he is given credit for generally.
Great point. I remember the first fight with Holyfield. Holyfield had him timed just as you described. You could tell early that Tyson was going to have problems.
Good eye, I don't think there is a better example. Of course Tyson's style was a young man's style, and he may had lost a shade of lightning by then, and some of these observations are based on these later day fights - so it is arguable that Tyson's less fumdamentaly sound but more athletically special way of ditching punches may have been superior in terms of what he had at his absolute peak and what Dempsey had at his, in these departments, but give me the more arbitrary movement any day of the week. And it is sort of relevant to the pressure question, imagine being approached by by a puncher like Dempsey and it isn't really possible to time him unless you pick up on the movement? Nice.
I'm in the minority on this, but I think the biggest things are legs. And that's why Marciano was so good. He could squat to the canvas and still punch out of that position. Frazier had that real good bob and weave. As soon as the pressure & swarmer types lose their legs, it's all over. They stand up straight. The legs have to be bent at a certain angle and that's where their power and snap originates. When those legs go just a little bit & these guys stand up just 2" taller it just completely changes the ballgame. And all of a sudden they're getting hit a lot of punches and from everyone they face. All of a sudden it becomes lots of tough fights & no more blowouts. Marciano had that bad back and he rarely crouched against Moore. Tyson stood up straight as he got older & he did that D'amato clockwise rotation thing. Patterson was another D'amato guy with that clockwise rotation--dip left & punch or dip left and dip right and then punch. On a count. Dempsey lasted for quite awhile and most likely the longest of the swarmers. But perhaps a few more championship fights during those not busy years of his & that deterioration is accelerated. Tua isn't worth mentioning due to his footwork and he had legs like steinways in there. I don't recall ever seeing the guy bounce on his feet. Hardly a fast guy on his feet at any time in his career & putting on the pounds don't add to his footwork, but subtract from what little was there in the first place. And Quarry was never a swarmer in there.
Qawi was a great example of using effective head/upper body movement to work his way in, often countering very well out of his slips and rolls.
Ah yes, to me Dwight was a prime example of a swarmer. Short, powerful and in your face for the entire fight. His nickname sums him up perfectly.
Dempsey was a fast starter and hard puncher and so was Tyson, Marciano was the toughest over the 15 rd route and if it was 12 I think he would pick up the pace even more...I think Marciano would be the most challenging and Frazier next because they were relentless pressure fighters...Frazier was easier to time with a punch, Marciano was a rythym breaker and came at you with an odd assortment of punches and aimed for the neck, collar bone and ears, elbows, shoulders and his Hammer shot that he clobbered Moore with. I am a fan of Dempsey's because of his rugged coal mine up bringing, soaked his eyes in brine and face also at 10 yrs old because he wanted to be the next Sullivan, Tyson was a beast early and a quick starter that faded by the 8th, I think out of the bunch Marciano was one that was still punching in the 10th 11th to the 15th and picking it up a notch.....I think he would be the last one I would pick over 15 because when you are tired and getting punched its hell...Like Vince Lombardi said "fatigue will make a coward of us all"
As far as the heavyweights go. I thought Dempsey & Tyson presented the most problems for there opponents. Dempsey with better head movement,Tyson with more speed of movement.
Good post, i agree. :good To elaborate a bit, i think a distinction should be made between Tyson & Dempsey, and Frazier & Marciano. Tyson and Dempsey were both among the fastest starters in history, coming out wild but controlled, with big power punches from all angles in combinations in addition to a lot of head movement to get inside. This left most opponents unconscious early in the fight and lead to a fearful reputation. This early onslaught however, costs a lot of energy, and from the 5th round on, both fighters slow down. Not that they become very beatable after that, but if they haven't found the KO yet, they are not likely to get it at all. Now, to Frazier. His defence is designed to accept a certain amount of punishment early, with as goal to take away any opportunity the opponent has to take a breath. Losing the early battle but winning the war. This means that most opponents are surprised by how much success they have, become overconfident, launch more shots but still have to use a lot of foot movement to stay away from Frazier, who constantly "smokes" forward. This leads to his opponents spending a gigantic amount of energy while Frazier takes it, relatively speaking, easy, and is just warming up. This content is protected Quarry won the first round big, but payed a high price for it - to such an extend that he was on the end of a one-sided beating for the rest of the fight. Having success early on by landing your shots on one hand gives you confidence, but the fact that he seems to hold back adds a certain sense of mystery - is he playing with me? The fact that you start overconfident but end up exhausted, while he only seemed to have grown stronger after you landed your best punch over and over, must be one of the most frightening experiences there are. Quarry was destroyed mentally. Ali landed more hard shots than he possibly ever did on any opponent, early on. He averaged over 65 punches a round during the first 5, but slowed down significantly after that, while Frazier took over. Ellis, too, had a lot of fortune early, but couldn't stay away and was brutalized in the 5th, leading to his corner stopping the fight. Foster awaited the same fate, only earlier. Frazier matches up great against lightheavyweights; i don't see any LHW in history beating him, including Charles, Spinks, Moore and Tunney. Basically, if you don't have the punch to take him out as well as a number of other factors (which goes for 98% of the fighters), you're dead meat and he'll catch up sooner or later. Ali and Holmes are probably the only exceptions, and even in their cases, it's not clear one way or the other. Now Marciano, he was different... one of a kind. Between 48-52, he was a one-punch KO artist, and between 53-56, he was a relentless swarmer like Frazier. But his defence and head movement was different from all of them. Frazier, Tyson and Dempsey, while not normal boxers, still used a lot of textbook techniques. Marciano didn't and this confused his opponents; broke their rhythm. It's no coincidence that every one of them (and a lot of keyboard warriors here) say you can't miss him, but every one of them also came back on that statement after Marciano knocked them out. He often leans back, seemingly on the defensive, than in a matter of milliseconds, he shifts his weight and momentum into a big right hand that you catches and surprises you coming in. Here is a video i've made on his defence: [yt]9b0yHvw-vW0[/yt] Sure, Rocky had a great chin, but that will only get you so far. Even Chuvalo was stopped twice (by Foreman & Frazier) and dropped twice by Bonavena. Marciano was never stopped or even beaten, and not because of his durability, but because of his technique. The thing about Marciano is: he could be nailed, but never with a succesion of punches. His defence is deceptively good, and when he did get hit, he seemed impervious to it, which means he could immediatly able to counter with a clear mind... which is very discouraging. This is where he is different from Frazier, Tyson and Dempsey. Tyson and Dempsey's defence, like their offense, slowed down significantly after the 5th round. This is the reason Mike was stopped in every defeat he suffered: he takes a great shot, but when you keep coming forward with a defence that isn't what it used to be, and figured out, you're going to eat a lot of shots. Dito with Dempsey. He took had to ship a ton of punches against Sharkey and both fights with Tunney, where he had to be lead away from the ring because he couldn't see. And i'll bet you that if those fights were more than 10 rounds or if he had guys like Lewis, Douglas or Holyfield in front of him, he wouldn't last the distance. This content is protected Frazier could be hit with a lot of punches early as Foreman showed, though it should be pointed out that Foreman may well be the hardest hitting and fastest starting heavyweight in history, which none of Tyson, Dempsey and Marciano had to deal with. However, once Frazier started "smoking", he keeps his defence up consistently, meaning you have more ease hitting Dempsey or Tyson late in the fight than Frazier. Tua is similar to Tyson in that he starts fast, but slows down a bit. Overal, his defence (or offense, outside of his left hook) can't hold a candle to Tyson. Though his stamina could be a bit better. Patterson was a bit more predictable (see Ali fights), didn't hit as hard, lacked stamina in comparison and had a weak chin. This sounds worse than he is, but obviously, few are going to look good when compared to Marciano et al.
Chris you are one of the few astute boxing minds that post here that can see the subtle as well as the obvious......by the way that clip was produced and arranged with brilliance, even the music was perfect...when you get the time I am sure we would all love to see more of that type of Art....
