CLASSIC FIGHT NIGHT THREAD:Wilder-Fury II

There are not enough "superheavies of any quality to justify adding another division to an already shallow weight class.
What have behemoths like
Wach 6'7.5"250-260lbs
Pianeta 6'5" 245-266lbs
Moli 6'4-5" 250-270lbs
McCline 6'6" 260-280lbs
Done since being painfully exposed as the walking wardrobes they are?
You'll get boxers jumping from one class to the other it would be impossible to classify anyone.I believe a quality heavyweight of 6'2"-3" 212-220lbs can beat anyone if he is good enough.
Joe Louis surely proved that.



Tyson Fury v Mike Tyson where is your money?

 

I see some people are advocating extending the cruiser division to 220 or something (though choklab seems adamant it can no longer be called cruiserweight, and should be heavyweight).
OK, so there's no extra weight class to be added.
In the name of fairness or purity of the sport or something.

But cruiserweight is already the most "unfair" of the limited weight divisions, spanning from over 175 to 200 pounds.
Already we have some men who come to the ring around 190 or 195 who cannot quite dry themselves down to light-heavy but have not the frame to become fully-fledged "dried out at 199" cruisers or even solid 200 natural.
I say tough sh!t to them, but I'm not advocating making their situation more difficult in the name of protecting a hypothetical 220 pouund "traditional" heavyweight from his own dilemma or facing giants or drying out.
It seems there's a lot of favouritism at play, and a fair bit of nostalgia too.

 

Yes, you are right. (although some cruisers do dry out).
That's why the idea of creating a traditional "heavyweight" division in the hope that it will produce talent and fights as we saw 30, 40, 50 years is fundamentally flawed. All the prestige and money will remain in the top division, and the elite talent will flock there inevitably.

 

Paradoxically, your story proves the counter point.
Because 40,000 people paid to see the Klitschko-Fury fight and the rematch will be even bigger, despite the dullness and non-fierceness of their match.
If the two women fought like the big guys did it wouldn't even be recognized as sport or fighting. They have to fight hard to keep the attention and respect of the fans.
Heavyweights always retain some "fascination" or prestige simply because of what they are.

 

There is at amateur and has been for years.

How would it be impossible? Fighters go where the money is and the public deserve the choice to spend it's money where they are best entertained.

Superheavyweight sized guys harm the reputation of boxing because they are able to exercise (unhindered) all of their often artificial advantage over severely handicapped smaller fighters or bounce around with simular sized oafs.

I would hope Mike Tyson. But Mike Tyson developed facing off against a majority of guys from 195-224lb. Would he have evolved into the same kind of guy had every second fighter he met was 230, 250? Or wouldnt he have developed his build from the start of his career above 216 himself, severely restricting his natural speed and technique from the outset?

 

I don't have any interest in amateurs. Mike Tyson would go through those oversized clowns I mentioned like Germany through Poland.

 

This is a good post. You make your points well. I just think it's silly calling a big man who might be 6'6" and 220lb on the night a cruiserweight.

"Heavyweight" as it is now, is misleading.

People tune in for a heavyweight title fight are not getting heavyweights are they? They are watching Superheavyweights. This jumbo version is not providing heavyweight boxing and its only so long that the wider public will stand for it.

We've all heard the casuals say "it's not like when Tyson was around is it?"

What do you say to them?

 

The casual fan assumes that there arent any exciting heavyweights around anymore ( especially American) because they are being lost to the more lucrative NFL or something. However, the likes of Tyson and Holyfield where brought up in a culture where they had American heavyweight role models and lots of them. Being heavyweight champion of the world was the most prestigious title in sport.

Since the domination of the heavyweight division by white europeans who are generally giants ( the likes of Valuev, Klitscko) The heavyweights division has lost its appeal - especially to Americans. Deontay Wilder is technically heavyweight champion of the world and should be a star but only those who follow the sport would know who he is.The fights are turgid and slow paced generally and it does not resemble the division as it used to be.

In every other division you can compare between different eras because there is a weight limit. The heavyweight division has evolved to the point that it will probably never resemble wars or great fights of the past anymore. Anthony Joshua may prove the exception to the rule because his career is resembling the early part of Mike Tyson's career at the moment and he is an exciting prospect.

In the past it would have been perfectly normal for a 190lb heavyweight to fight a 220lb heavyweight so I dont think it would be a mismatch if two cruiserweights were to fight at this weight. I guess there is a certain nostalgia of the heavyweights division and for me to be able to see a division that resembles HW boxing of the past. At the moment I dont think the cruiserweight division does this and its not a marketable division either.

 

Cruiserweight is not marketable as it is because the name and size of its boxers is confusing..and Heavyweight (as it is today) cannot be so marketable for much longer the way it's going. Giants evolving "heavyweight" into a power event where only the longest arms matter.

The two biggest weight classes in boxing have the wrong name. I think this is clear.

Something new happened 20 years ago but the names of the weight classes stayed the same. The thing that was new was the increased representation of 238 pound fighters in the top ten. Some were 6'6" some were shorter but as hefty. The division changed. The style of boxing changed to suit the new pace and size.

Giving the cruiserweights an extra few pounds and a name change will create interest. It's champions would experience more focus. It will have to live up to past reputation of traditional sized heavyweights. It's better established champions could even challenge super heavyweight champions.

The same will happen to the super heavyweights. It would create interest as it already does as the open class. Fascination for jumbo sized men will still exist. If this division produces better fights it will retain its existing appeal. But if the public decide it's entire appeal is based on a reputation found in another weight class that's where the money will go.

 

What a load of ****e being spouted here.

Valuev got dethroned by Haye.
Vitali git stopped by Byrd.
Lewis s****ed by Holy
Bowe lost to Holy
Willard lost to Dempsey
Carnera lost to Louis
Fury s****ed by Cunningham

Are there any other super heavyweights worth mentioning? Not in my opinion.

Let's say a difference of 10 pounds because the fight is over less rounds so training is different. Even that is generous and not really in line with evidence imo.

Either way there has never been a SHW who hasnt struggled with a man who could fight in the CW division.

So what if the guys have to be more skilled to overcome the SHW fighters, boo fukin hoo.

Honestly pit Joe Frazier against Tyson Fury and tell me that Fury has enough power to keep Frazier at range, I'm not having it. Wlad was concussive and could beat a smaller man because they had to get inside and ship punishment doing it. Fury beat Wlad on the outside and he did it with speed and movement, that isnt gonna keep a faster HW at bay.

Haye would be a huge favourite over Fury if he was close to prime form. Most great HW fighters would be favoured over Fury. He's shown he can beat an outside fighter with no inside game who's inferior in hand speed. Show me a great HW fitting that bill aside from Wlad? This isn't a question of size, just now, as always, it's a question of style.

 

Four additional ounces is not going to bother a ATG fighter.

Size again is being WAYYYYYYY overplayed here. It's the very low level of talent in the hwt division today that is the main problem.

 

Valuev got dethroned by Haye. -

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Vitali git stopped by Byrd.

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Lewis s****ed by Holy -

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Bowe lost to Holy -

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Willard lost to Dempsey -

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Carnera lost to Louis -

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Fury s****ed by Cunningham -

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You just had one who ended an 11 year streak as lineal champion who was only beaten by a man even bigger than he was, not to mention with about a 12 year youth advantage.

What cruiser weights are ruling the division now? How many are even contenders?

 

Type of antibiotic. Good stuff

 

Valuev vs Haye was a rubbish fight - much worse than Fury vs Klitschko

I think Valuev actually just about won that fight and Haye used his speed to run around the ring and landed a good right hand in the last round but it was hardly what I would call an example of a cruiserweight showing he could take on a SHW.

 

The fact you have to make an excuse for every listed win says it all really.

I'm not interested in youth. That's not an issue here.

Ruling the division right now is Fury.