CLASSIC FIGHT NIGHT THREAD:Wilder-Fury II

I agree. "Quality" is the key word, though. The smaller guy has to be exceptional to overcome the size discrepancy, but it can be done. I agree with Choklab that other factors have favoured the giants, too.:good

 

Much worse? They were about equally terrible, I'd say. None of the four principles did anything remotely impressive on either night, especially in the first ⅔ of each contest.

Haye and Valuev started to heat up in the last, what, minute or so? (and that was thanks solely to Haye; Valuev never showed any urgency). Fury and Klitschko did get the jump on them by a couple of rounds, but the sporadic bursts of fighting in the last four were hardly Hagler vs. Hearns type stuff and didn't erase the previous eight rounds of literally. nothing. happening.

 

The reason I showed it was an example of a cruiserweight taking on a SHW was because in the fight a cruiserweight successfully took on a SHW.

 

But where is the next Mike Tyson coming from? Those days could be over. Forever!

Think about this. I think it's important. Tyson developed his skill set and speed largely against guys no more than 224lb. He didn't really give away that much weight going through the ranks.

Imagine Tyson giving away 40lb or so every other fight during his development stage? What's he going to do? Will his people put him in at cruiserweight until he's good enough? Mike Tyson at cruiserweight!! Or will they build him up like stumpy David Tua?

If there was a superheavyweight class a new Tyson could develop at heavyweight and create interest there before taking on a superheavyweight when he was ready. A bit like Mike Spinks having a career at lightheavyweight first then taking on Holmes as the finished article.

 

As long as you understand that I basically debunked every one of your points except for Carnera losing to Louis, which I already addressed with Carnera being terrible.

 

Our top 10 atm:

Fury: 247
Wladimir: 245
Povetkin: 227
Wilder: 228
Pulev: 245
Stiverne: 254
Takam: 252
Glazkov:223
Jennings: 226
Cunningham: 204
Average: 235

Top ten year end 95

Bowe: 240
Lewis: 241
Tyson: 220
Moorer: 221
Holyfield: 213
Seldon: 234
Bruno: 247
Foreman: 256
Zolkin: 245
Akinwande: 230
Average: 235

Loom at the numbers. The average weight of the top ten is same now as it was 20 years ago. Which top 10 features the heaviest man? 95. Which top 10 features the lightest man? 15. Which top 10 features most fighters over 230? 95.

People rabbit on about the division getting bigger, where is the proof?

Yes, since 96 the champion has been Lewis, then Vitali, then Wlad, then Fury. But that is more about style than anything else. Lewis is an ATG so nuff said there. Vitali had to fight Sanders for the championship, I dare say Vitali did not win because he was the bigger man. Cloudy period follows where we have had Byrd as number 1 (former MW) and Wlad as number 1 (beating the former MW). Wlad sealed his championship with a win over Povetkin, that was purely down to size so ill concede a point there. Fury beat Wlad because he was quicker and could stay out of range, so maybe that is size also.

But let's all bear in mind, the lightest contender out of the 20 men named on this post has very nearly scored a stoppage over the current champion, people need to pipe down about a SHW era.

Yes Wlad beat Povetkin and Haye by being bigger, would he have beaten a more skilled opponent with a better inside game, we may never know. We do know Fury has been dropped and shaken by a man no bigger than the afore mentioned 2. And is Fury a favourite over Povetkin right now? Not in my book and remember Povetkin is a man who is lighter than the average weight of the 95 crew.

 

Well no you haven't debunked anything.

The only fact is there has never been a SHW who has failed to be troubled by a CW. Never.

 

Your points about Lewis being "stopped By Holyfield" and Fury being " stopped by Cunningham" were flat out wrong, though I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that they were typing errors. The rest is pretty much irrelevant or meaningless.. A big man having one or two tough nights with a smaller man hardly represents the norm or is enough to establish any kind of pattern. Joe Louis, Muhammad Ali, and numerous others had off nights against smaller men who would have been cruisers in a more modern era.

 

So why has the style of boxing changed so dramatically from 1995-2015 then?

Is it just because there isnt the depth of talent that there was 20 years ago?

Do you really see a 1995 Tyson or Holyfield as good as they were beating Klitschko? The only person who could overcome Klitschko was a man bigger than himself to take away his gameplan- hence the debate of bigger being a powerful asset.

 

And hence is the very reason why weight divisions even exist in boxing in the first place. If size didn't matter then why didn't Pernell Whitaker ever fight Holyfield for the title of baddest man on the planet? There is a wives tale in boxing that any man over 185 lbs should be able to beat any man no matter how enormous his opponent may be.. While we've certainly seen smaller heavyweights dispatch mammoth ones, its hardly what I'd deem as being the norm.. We can throw all kinds of examples out there, ie. Louis beating Carnera, Dempsey beating Willard, Holy beating Bowe, etc, etc, etc.. But when you have two men are equally matched in most other areas, the larger one "usually" prevails, which again is why we have these things called " divisions." It was certainly understandable to make heavyweight the " unlimited weight class" at one time... Sure you could have been 5'9", 183 lbs and facing some dude who was 6'3", 220. Hell you might even have beaten him.. But it was highly unlikely that you'd be facing a guy with that kind of size advantage EVERY time you entered a ring. What's more is that heavys don't just top off at 6'3" 220 or 6'5", 240 anymore.. You have freaks reaching nearly 7'0" tall and weighing almost 300 lbs, to go along with being in good shape, skilled, having good managers and amatuer backgrounds... Different ball game today than it was years ago.

 

Muhammad Ali was 213lb when he fought Cleveland Williams in 1967

Ken Norton was 218lb when he fought Ali for the world title in 1976

Larry Holmes was 213lb when he fought Gerry Kooney in 1982

Where would these greats fit in todays scene with a cruiserweight limit of 200lb?

 

In hs run up to the title Tyson had 28 fights, he was the smaller man in 7 of them.
He had 58 fights and was the smaller man in 28 of them and the shortest in all of them I believe.

 

No one really thinks Cunningham is in the top ten! Take him out, and add Joshua. Then you will see the 2015 crew is a little heavier. Also, Fury not staying at 247

http://ringtv.craveonline.com/ratings/heavyweight

 

Glazkov shouldn't really be in there either. Practically all of his best wins were gift decisions. Malik Scott and Tony Thompson are better heavyweights.