CLASSIC FIGHT NIGHT THREAD:Wilder-Fury II

if that is the scientific finding. Yes. I accept the theory behind that. In practice smaller gloves produce a more effective punch. Cleaner ratio trumps overall impact.

the information about impact strictly speaking was not tested on soggy horse hair stuffed gloves with loose wedding massaged away from the taped up knuckles like in Joe Louis days but rather on MMA mitts. No matter, MMA gloves are still smaller and therefore more accurate and potent overall in a combat situation than safety competition boxing gloves.

Twice the impact, twice the effect? It's splitting hairs when we both know small gloves do make a big difference.

 

We have both established that it is harder to land a clean shot for both fighters with big gloves. You have endorsed this. Even you.

This favours the bigger guy. Clearly.

I am not ignoring the defence of the smaller guy. Sure he benefits from shielding himself but a stronger guy hitting him on the gloves whilst he's got his ear muff going on still shakes him up.

Twice the affect because the ratio of cleaner punches with smaller gloves is more effective than it is with larger gloves. Even if the impact might be the same. Smaller targets can be pinpointed more often. More accurately. More shots on direct target. I have explained this.

Small gloves make a huge difference. It's obvious and I've explained it.

 

You disagree that lack of previous precision does not make it harder for smaller fighters? Or because lack of precision effects both fighters you somehow think it fair that just one guy can still make a greater impression without so much precision?

If you half the precision you half the chances of the guy who depends on more precision.

At one time it was work rate versus size and power when both had precision. Halfing precise punches landed for the guy with only initial work rate going for him clearly makes it harder for him. Halfing precision for the guy with size and power won't stop him making an impression with clubbing blows. He had that going for him already.

no, I'm saying fighters with small gloves obviously land a greater number of clean shots. Huge difference.

A clean punch effectively is a more damaging punch. Saying "harder" because it is so much more affective is not so incorrect as you would like it to be. I shall try to remember to use " more damaging" punch rather than "harder" punch just to keep you happy.:good since smaller gloves do make a big difference.

 

To be totally honest Haye had no issues landing on Valuev and Byrd had no issues landing on Vitali.

The only thing which favours the bigger man is the allowance of clinching. Fury started wearing Cunningham down when he could lean all over him. Wlad beat Povetkin by being able to lean all over him. Even Ali and Frazier.

Punish clinching hardly, force a man to fight inside once his range is given up and you would see the smaller man win much more.

Just picture Haye and Wlad trading in the pocket, every time Wlad clinches he gets a point taken off. If Haye can slip that jab Wlad's only option is to block, run or trade. How effective would the bigger man really be then?

Put Dempsey and Wlad in a phone booth and only a fool would pick Wlad.

Atm a man works his way inside just to be rewarded with a clinch, one he can't prevent because he's against a man 40 pounds heavier. If it was such that a man works his way inside to be rewarded with an in fighting battle, it would be down to skill not size who came out on top.

 

You make excelent points. Compared with earlier eras It's clear that the changes in the division have left smaller fighters with far too much stacked against them.

Landing is one thing. but if the ratio of landed punches is made up of more effective cleaner punches (as it used to be when gloves were smaller) then within the punches they did land a higher number of more damaging blows would be recorded by Haye and Byrd.

yes the bigger man has too many things his own way. Your right, this is unfair. Nothing is handicapping the larger fellow. At least at one time the bigger man was working for less of the round as he paced himself for the longer distance, but even that is eliminated in favour of Jumbo.

Not very because wlad is not going to beat Haye to the draw. However, to be fair to Wlad he was good at using distance and bluffing a less experienced guy into working at his pace. But your right clinching is not acceptable to that kind of extent.

I honestly think Wlad will do a lot better in today's gloves. Dempsey won't get the same quality in so many shots, he will need more rounds to do it. He might till do it but he's got more stacked against him than he ever did versus a giant. Give Dempsey the gloves he had versus Firpo and its almost an unfair advantage to Jack. This is much fairer.

it's going to stay like that. That's why the division has went the way it has. Now it's jumbo sized goons against each other. skill is almost irrelevant compared to past times. Because they allow for their size. Long arms and a weight advantage is almost the be all and end all. This is why they need separating. Make heavyweight Superheavyweight and if nobody wants to be in it they can cut weight and become heavyweights again. What's wrong with being 6'9" and 224lb? If they want to be heavier the punishment is to join Superheavyweight. Fans win if this happens.

Penalise holding. For every 14lb heavier a guy is than his opponent that should represent a 10% forfeit to his opponent in purse money. Either that or the smaller guy gets to wear smaller gloves than the big guy. 6oz versus 12oz.

 

TBH you sound deranged with this glove talk mate. That isn't the issue.

The issue isn't even fight length, boxers can condition themselves accordingly and fight at a pace of their choosing.

The issue for me is that if you get a fighter like Wlad, who has moderate hands peed, concussive power and a friendly ref, it's almost impossible to beat him spotting him 20+ pounds. If he was made to fight inside or actually control range outside without the use of a clinch, he's suddenly a lot more beatable and has to reply on stopping a man on his way in.

This doesn't benefit the bigger man per se, it benefits a certain style of fighting, namely those who cannot fight inside. Ali did the same to Frazier.

If clinching was punished the gloves wouldn't be an issue because, apart from Bowe and maybe Lewis and maybe Vitali, no SHW has shown any inside game. They don't learn to fight inside. They learn to jab and grab. Take that away and it opens up to more pleasing fights.

If Willard was allowed to wrestle Jack every time he came within punching difference, history would be totally different.

 

I made this point briefly earlier and I agree completely. If we want to make changes that will encourage action and reward skills, something needs to be done about all the holding and leaning (in the heavyweight division, at the very least, but I'm not sure that I see any reason to stop there). Would be far more direct and effective than coming up with a pseudo-heavyweight division.

 

Great post.

 

Ali used to clinch Frazier

He did it all the time in Ali-Fraizer 11

Would a ref such as Mills Lane make a difference in the modern HW division?

 

I think we have explored the subject of glove sizes pretty extensively.Being only of average intelligence I didn't get the connection with the Wlad v Fury result.

 

Fury can fight on the inside.
In fact he would have done a more punishing job in the later rounds if Wlad hadn't been allowed to grab, hold and/or turn his back to get away from an in-fight.

 

If there's a rematch in the UK ,I don't think Tony Weeks will be getting the call as third man.