CLASSIC FIGHT NIGHT THREAD:Wilder-Fury II

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by McGrain, Nov 15, 2014.


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  1. mrkoolkevin

    mrkoolkevin Never wrestle with pigs or argue with fools Full Member

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    Wlad was trying to run away but it was still a blatant foul. But more importantly, please watch the blatant Fury rabbit punches at around: 35:48; 40:45; 44:35; and 51:20, for starters, and let me know how you justify them and/or blame Wlad for them. I get that you don't like Wlad (I'm not much of a fan either), but some stuff is just indefensible, whether you think it made a difference or not.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qp5-LSUa9nQ
     
    mrkoolkevin, Dec 4, 2015
    mrkoolkevin, Dec 4, 2015
    #1471
  2. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    Here is an article I found that mentions the Nevada findings. They discovered after five years of research that less padding in gloves caused more injury and that extra padding helps absorb more punishment, which was more dangerous in the long run.

    http://uk.askmen.com/sports/fanatic_300/316_which-is-more-dangerous-boxing-or-mma.html



    Would Jack Dempsey or Joe Louis relish hitting a big man with gloves that help him absorb more punishment? Or would they be satisfied with the fact that whilst it might be harder for them to end a fight -in theory they themselves can absorb more punishment if need be from the bigger man?


    Here is another complete study that found 4oz MMA gloves produce 4 times more peak force than boxing gloves. They put both gloves on a molded fist striking an anvil to reach their findings.


    http://combatsportslaw.com/2015/01/...-times-greater-peak-force-than-boxing-gloves/
    https://canadianmmalawblog.files.wo...netic-properties-of-boxing-and-mma-gloves.pdf
     
    choklab, Dec 5, 2015
    choklab, Dec 5, 2015
    #1472
  3. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    I've already answered this question because you've already asked it.

    I've never read of any fighter in any era who "wanted" the bigger gloves. It just hasn't ever happened. Big, or small, fighters publicly expressed a desire to fight in the smallest gloves in the era where this was in question. The one exception was Sullivan.

    This is a study of four ounce MMA gloves v 16oz sparring gloves. Really, all you've done here is answer your own question about why people chose sparring gloves for sparring; it does nothing to challenge the information i presented on combat boxing gloves v combat MMA gloves. Secondly and crucially this study did not investigate the mechanics of the punch. This is not a study of punching, at all. I'd suggest that it is of very limited value in understanding anything but fatigue of glove material, which has been of some interest lately after the Golovkin pictures emerged.

    That said, it is interesting and I welcome your posting actual information as opposed to just passing off opinion.
     
    McGrain, Dec 5, 2015
    McGrain, Dec 5, 2015
    #1473
  4. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    With regard to the study that compared the impact of MMA gloves to boxing gloves, the data produced the last result that I expected.

    I had always assumed that there would be a significant difference one way or the other.

    Be that as it may, I think we have to accept this study as being the best data that we have on the subject, at the present time.
     
    janitor, Dec 5, 2015
    janitor, Dec 5, 2015
    #1474
  5. dinovelvet

    dinovelvet Antifanboi Full Member

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    All those instances are a result of Wlad reaching in to grab Fury around the neck. Fury isn't just going to lay down and surrender his attack because Wlad is holding him.

    Wlad instigated the fouling , not Fury.
    As i said , this is the punch game , not the clinch game. What can't you understand about that?
     
    dinovelvet, Dec 5, 2015
    dinovelvet, Dec 5, 2015
    #1475
  6. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    Four to five times greater peak force is not tiny. That's the latest Science.
     
    choklab, Dec 5, 2015
    choklab, Dec 5, 2015
    #1476
  7. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    It is not a question of which study is more recent, it is a question of which has the better methodology.

    If one study is conducted with a machine, and one is conducted with an actual human being, you would have to regard the study using the human subject as having a better methodology.

    You can’t simply pick the study that produces the result that you want.
     
    janitor, Dec 5, 2015
    janitor, Dec 5, 2015
    #1477
  8. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    I've already covered this.

    1 - The study you've used is a machine wearing a glove punching straight down onto a fixed plate. It is not a study of punching. It's a study of machinery. This is the most important point...

    2 - So it in no way contradicts the two studies i referenced, or the video i linked which studied punching, and found almost no difference.

    3 - In the link you've provided the physicist consulted stated that peak force was the least interesting of the numbers produced, the one with the least meaning but the one that is "easiest to grab" (Which you immediately did...).

    4 - Your study studies the difference between 16 ounce gloves and 4 oz gloves. The video i linked and the studies I quoted compared combat boxing gloves with combat MMA gloves.

    In short, what you've linked doesn't advance your position. I'm sure it won't stop you quoting this study endlessly over the next couple of years, but it's not about boxing. Sorry.
     
    McGrain, Dec 5, 2015
    McGrain, Dec 5, 2015
    #1478
  9. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Yes; not just a machine, but to be clear for anyone who doesn't bother to click, a machine that forces a boxing glove down perpendicularly onto a flat steel surface. It resembles the motion of a jackhammer, it's not even a machine that "apes" boxing.

    It IS of interest IMO, but not for the reasons choklab wants it to be.
     
    McGrain, Dec 5, 2015
    McGrain, Dec 5, 2015
    #1479
  10. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    I have to admit I don't like scientific tests. One test says hardly any difference, another says MMA glove has Four to five times more "peak force" whatever that is.

    No test is ideal other than what you have already agreed. that champions from all eras (apart from Sulivan) prefer smaller gloves.

    Now I don't know how to go about finding examples of a smaller fighter knocking out a bigger fighter with Jack Dempsey gloves and then get him to reenact the same punch on the same larger victim with a big glove ...but apparently the Nevada Athletic commission already found that less padding did do more damage. and like you say, fighters prefer smaller gloves.

    As usual if a fighter is good enough, he's big enough to win with either glove. But in these cases, smaller gloves must increase chances of a winner winning early or establishing greater impression regardless of size.
     
    choklab, Dec 5, 2015
    choklab, Dec 5, 2015
    #1480
  11. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Just look at what is being tested. One is testing a fighter, wearing a glove, punching. Being tested are combat gloves. The other is testing a machine wearing 16 oz gloves and has nothing to do with punching.

    The first is testing punching and boxing gloves; the second is testing machining and gloves that are not being debated.

    There is no problem with the contradiction between the two tests: none. One tests punching one isn't. One test combat gloves, one isn't.

    You dismiss the one that isn't testing punching or gloves.
     
    McGrain, Dec 5, 2015
    McGrain, Dec 5, 2015
    #1481
  12. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    Scientific tests are the best model that we as a species, have for evaluating what is true.

    While they do not represent absolute truth, they represent the best answer available, based on the current state of human knowledge.

    We therefore have to provisionally say; that there would have been negligible difference, between the force exerted by gloves from different eras.
     
    janitor, Dec 5, 2015
    janitor, Dec 5, 2015
    #1482
  13. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    Force but not damage. The Nevada findings say less padding causes more damage and that extra padding helps absorb more punishment.
     
    choklab, Dec 5, 2015
    choklab, Dec 5, 2015
    #1483
  14. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    With all due respect, you have not produced this study. You have produced an article from askmen.com which quotes that study, and indirectly. The article states that:

    "The study warned that more padding in gloves meant punches were easier to absorb, which means a fighter could be hit more times."

    We have never seen a direct quote from the study.

    This is important because it could be talking about a) the minuscule differences between combat gloves at 8 or 10 ounces or b) the significant differences between 10oz gloves and 16oz gloves or c) it could be helpful to your position. It could be a part of the anti-sparring float from around that time.

    I've no idea. Nor have you. So using it to draw detailed conclusions is not sensible - in fact, to be frank, it's ridiculous. At the moment you're just making it what you want it to be (for some obscure reason).
     
    McGrain, Dec 5, 2015
    McGrain, Dec 5, 2015
    #1484
  15. mrkoolkevin

    mrkoolkevin Never wrestle with pigs or argue with fools Full Member

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    Wow. No offense but it sounds like your hatred for Wlad K. has seriously clouded your judgment. Being clinched is NEVER a legitimate justification for intentionally rabbit punching an opponent and I am stunned that you would make such an argument. Maybe you just don't understand how dangerous and wrongful rabbit punches are?
     
    mrkoolkevin, Dec 5, 2015
    mrkoolkevin, Dec 5, 2015
    #1485
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