Classic Poll : Wlad v.s. Louis ...

Excellent post. :good

 

You are complicating matters. To wit, you say that a fighter who can use advanced techniques but doesn't develop the skill to apply ("use") those techniques may never be more than a journeyman.

A certified plumber who doesn't know how to apply a lug wrench isn't skilled in the true sense of the word.

Ring Generalship is simply the ability to dominate opponents and control the action in a boxing match. It's a better way to say it and is less confusing.

...This makes me think that you haven't been reading or understanding the competing argument. Read the previous posts and feel free to disagree, but at least see the reasoning.

 

This is ridiculous on its face. If Wlad were 6'1 and 220 he would not even have earned a thread. He'd be a professor in some univesity in Germany and probably a professional chess player.

Correct -unfortunately there are relatively few technically brilliant heavyweights in history.

Timber!!

 

i like how you say technical skill and brilliance are not correlated with size and then simultaneously talk **** about farr and conn's weight and how louis was hit by them

 

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Fu5hkyen9Y[/ame]

I see Chag moving forward here early, going low to the body, glove blocking or using lateral movement to avoid the jab. However, I see Wlad using very light feet to recreate distance or turn the direction of Chag's attack, and if all else fails, the dreaded clinch. Ultimately, I see Chag getting wearied by Wlad's jab and physicality.

I still think the vulnerable area is when forced to clinch, when Wlad can not avoid the attack, if an opponent could correctly time that, he could open up some serious damage.

 

:bbbsomeone who throws short, tight punches like louis would love those opportunities

 

Or Dempsey and Tyson ... they would absolutly annhilate Wlad.

 

It's a combination, sure.

I've been re-watching a lot of Wlad and reflecting and the man is good. Maybe better than I'm giving credit for. I just think the contemporary thought from modern fans that he's invincible because he's too big and skilled is mythical. Even my father thought Haye was too small to beat Wlad. I told him I thought it was more of an issue of style than size.

I re-watched Chageov fight. It's a good fight. Chageov tried, and maybe I should credit his effort. I still stand that he's uncomfortable pressing Wlad because he's not akin to fight in such a matter despite his nickname, although he attempts to sporadically do so. I think he figured after round 1 that the jab and left hands to the body wasn't going to work and that he would need to jab his head more, than maybe go to the body. After round 3-4 Ruslan accepts a fight from a range. Wlad's certainly athletic getting away from the few attacks. You need persistence, and not a content for re-setting at a range.

I still think small, consummate pressure would be Wlad's undoing. Such fast pressure to get him to back up and stop punching... or holding.

I don't need to fault Ali. He has adaptability, variety, even if he's nontechnical and unorthodox in his approach. I credit Ali's in-fighting in Manilla, and I think any fan or observer should.

I'm faulting the climate, teachers, and dried up talent pool. Not so much the fighters. Although, I think I can lay some blame to Haye for talking all the right things only to fight uncharacteristically to his words. Not just hype words, but words that reflect what was needed against Wlad and his mentality. Still, I accepted the same.

You're right, though. He's a terrific boxer. He really knows how to use his tools physically to his greatest advantage. I was almost going to make a thread about Wlad being a better boxer than Lewis. I think he is. I just don't think he's as good of a fighter.

 

Shame I didn't see this post when I replied to Bodhi. Yeah, Chageav did try, and I should give him more credit for his effort.

Seamus, do you think its safe to say Wlad is a better boxer to Lewis... just not a fighter?

I still think he's akin to counter-punching and wasn't quite comfortable pressing. This is why his attacks are sporadic, and sometimes you see him habitually consent to re-set at a longer range. I think he also realized the jab and left to the body wasn't going to get it done. That's the mentality of a boxer. He realized I think that wouldn't work and tried attacking the head with a jab and following it up, so I do give him credit for his effort. Wlad is quite the athlete and getting away from punches, as we see here. I just wish we saw a bit more persistence, a double jab, and from someone more comfortable and naturally equipped to do such a task.

 

Technical skill has nothing to do with size. However, when you have technical skills, combines with athleticism, power, speed, and size, they you have Wlad. Wlad has lost maybe 12 rounds his entire career.

Joe Louis lost more rounds than that in two fights with Walcott!

I see Stonehands did not like me pointing out that Louis has a losing record vs. the best fighters he fought, and how he struggled with smaller technical fighters who would not have much of a chance at all with Wlad.

 

That's because I agreed with it.

 

Firstly:

Who are you to set an subjective list of the best oponents that Louis fought, that includes a number that he fought well outside his prime?

Secondly:

Having issues with smaller fighters is a stylistic matter. I could just as well ask how Purity, Sanders or Brewster would have fared against any version of Louis post Carnera.

 

Do you also agree with the point that Louis had major trouble vs good jabbers?

Do you also agree his defense, low guard and slow paced shuffling advance would make it difficult for him to get past Wlad's jab?

 

I would say Marciano, Charles, Walcott, Schmeling, and Max Bear were the best fighters Louis fought. That is my subjective list, and I suspect yours top 5 best opponents for Louis would be an 80% match or greater.

Louis had issues with movement. It wasn't just smaller fighters. His defensive inadequates are there to view on film, and were most certainly exploited by skilled boxers. Seldom do taller / skilled fighters with a longer reach get out jabbed by shorter fighters with less reach but it happened too frequently for Louis due to several defensive flaws.