Classic Poll : Wlad v.s. Louis ...

He's not being ignored in Eastern Europe -whoopdee-doo. He's dismissed as boring on the rest of the planet. The last Heavyweight Title fight that did anything like big business on PPV was almost 10 years ago and that was Lewis-Tyson. And like it or not, America remains boxing's home base. If we're ignoring the HW champion of the world -that ain't good.

Nobody was ignoring Lennox Lewis, chap, and Lewis seemed to claim allegiance to every nation but America.

He has "immense skill" and yet you deny being "highly impressed" with him?

I find him to be a decent fighter for a man his size. I find his opponents to be less than average when you apply a meaningful measure (never mind this banner-waving about their being "world's contenders"). They fought Wlad like stumblebums and their trainers ought to be run out of the gym.

Your belief that he has "immense skill" is, frankly, what's really laughable.

It ain't his fault. Giants aren't generally known for their skill in the ring and you too should know and admit that -why else did guys like Walker and Greb and Conn seek them out? They're on record for telling it like it is -oversized guys may be tough to handle for your average belligerent in a bar but real fighters know the truth. And that is, they're easier to handle because they're slower and have less command over the fundamentals. They rely on size and strength or power. And that's why skilled guys like Louis and Langford poleaxed them and speed guys like Ali made clowns out of them.

Wlad is not devoid of skill, but novices in the Golden Gloves have a better command over a wider range of the fundamentals than he ever will. Any argument that claims that his size is not the primary reason for his success is just silly.

 

Homework as in conditioning, skill-development, and implementing a viable strategy to deal with a giant who has real weaknesses and who fights no differently from fight-to-fight. Figuring out how to penetrate Wlad is going to continue to be difficult for inexperienced, smaller fighters with deficient skill sets and trainers who never heard of the Fitszimmons Shift. Thus the problem.

 

I have to agree here. if he thinks Wlad has "immense skill" what must he think of someone like Kessler or Amir Khan who employ essentially the same style but against better opponents at a pace that would tire out Wlad in three rounds and with a far greater offensive repertoire(such as being able to throw COUNTERS)? yet they are still extremely basic fighters.

 

What's your point ?
Americans don't like Wlad so that proves he's not good or impressive ?
Ignore him all you want, he's the heavyweight champion of the world. I'm sure the best American heavyweights, who have shared a ring with him, don't ignore him.

And your point is ?

Well, he's not my cup of tea, style wise.
There's a difference between having a highly impressive style and just having immense skill. He's clearly got immense skill.

Maybe you don't understand what boxing skill is. It's hitting and not getting hit, and forcing the opponent to fight your fight. Wlad does that. He does it to quite an extreme degree. The fact that he doesn't even seem to use many tools to do so, shows that he's very skillful.
People know what he does, but can't get past it.

You're so intent on disparaging the know-how of the Wlad's opponents and their trainers, (you sound almost like David Haye pre-Saturday night)I'd like to know how many top-flight heavyweight boxers you train, your success rate with it and your boxing experience and own chances (or your fighter's chances) against Wlad.
With your apparently superior knowledge, I'm sure your skills are in high demand ?

Walker, Greb and Conn did not seek out giants of Wladimir Klitschko's like.
Not as big, and not as skillful.

For a very big fighter who hasn't mastered the way to fight and developed the skill to use his size, his size can even be a burden to him against a skillful smaller fighter, yes.

Very good very big guys - let's say the best ones, Wlad, Lewis in particular - may not rely on the same skills and the multitude of tricks and techniques that the best of the smaller men use, but to be dominant they mastered their style and developed immense skill in applying it.

You're wrong.
I don't know your motivation for being so wrong, but you are.

 

**** that, at least Amir Khan throws punches

 

Kessler is not as good as Wlad, IMO.
Khan's isn't, and his style is nothing like Wlad's.

It doesn't matter about "basic" style.

Wladimir is like a Tennis player who never does anything but play from the baseline, rarely if ever goes to the net to volley, has nothing fancy in his repetoire and choice of shots, just dictates the play from the baseline and wins in straight sets. .... dominates his opponent.

It would take a tennis player with an immense degree of skill to pull that off, but the style would be classed as basic.

People don't seem to understand what SKILL is.

 

louis by stoppage

 

While I don't find Wlad overly entertaining, those who deny his skill level are sounding more and more shrill and desperate each day. It is a case study in denial and is frankly tedious.

 

I don't think you understand what skill is. what you're talking about is his ring generalship which is enhanced by his size and power. his technical skills are nothing to write home about. Kessler and Khan are both far more technically proficient than Wlad, despite the latter's tendency to be very sloppy at times. they simply don't have the luxury of facing unskilled bums who lets Wlad just simply skip away from punches. to be honest, there aren't more than a couple of heavyweights in history who were at even 1/4 as skilled as someone like McCallum so this isn't a knock aimed directly at Wlad.

 

I'm a big fan of Amir Khan(heart and speed) but even I wouldn' really say that he's more proficient than Wlad. He's extremely hittable at the moment even though he's a bigger 140lber, lacks defensive ability or pretty much any kind besides some decent countering ability and putting on earmuffs and moving away with his feet.

Wlad puts way better leverage on his punches and has better overall range control(although i guess a lot of that is world class experience).

 

It's as though some expect a 6 foot 6 inch fighter to bob and weave, do a fancy little Jersey Joe two-step, and then duck in for a few body shot. The fact is Wlad has stopped 8 of his last 10 in title matches, a pretty impressive record even for this era. Results speak to skill, not fancy jigs or useless form points.

 

I don't even know where you are but I do know that there are times out here that the shots taken at the U.S. suggest insecurity with one's own flag.

Also, I think I've been alot harder on American heavyweights than I have on Wlad.

Clearly, you and cranky Seamus uphold a definition of skill that is odd.

What's the matter? Did I hurt your feelings?

I can think of one who was bigger... but I fear that your definition of skill has run this little debate off the road.

Speak specifically about what "skills" it takes to "use" one's size.

 

louis ko,s wlad through the ropes.and haye same night

 

Anyone want to comment on my post?

Fighters with good movement and jabs such as Farr, Pastror, Schmeling, Conn, Walcott, and Charles either defeated Louis or made him look very bad. I think this is not a coincidence. Outside of the re-match with Schmeling, all of the above fights were 10 rounds or more.

None of these guys were close to Wlad's size, and none of them had his power. None had Wlad's high guard either. In fact I could argue Wlad had a better chin than most of them too! In addition, none of these guys could clamp down as well on a smaller fighter via clinch on the inside.

Louis was never dynamic with his feet nor did he have a bob and weave / slip and duck method to close the distance quickly. He had a measured approach that included a low guard, limited head movement, limited lateral movement, and was prone to knockdowns and being stunned. Defensively Louis was average at best. Could he really 1 ) Get past Wlad's jab, and 2 ) Catch up to him before he takes a pasting? Think about it...

I think the answer to question number one is no.

I think the answer to question number two is not on a consistent basis.

Louis has a punchers' chance. But so does Wlad. Louis is not going to catch Wlad on the ropes, and flims show JL is painfully slow to change tactics. At this point, I favor Wlad in this one.

 

It's one of the first things a good coach will teach a charge... that if you are tall, maximize your height, use it along with your reach to control a fight. Height allows you to lean back to control space, a no-no if you are average or below average height. If you are shorter, you're taught get as small as you can to minimize yourself as a target, and use sidestepping and lateral movement. Both skillsets are full and varied, and difficult to perfect. Wlad does an amazing job at the former, though I still don't like it when he squats down when jabbing.