I've written about everything I saw. Supposedly Liston had crap on his gloves at the beginning of the 4th to blind Clay. There is nothing in the footage indicating Clay had problems with his eyes until the round was over and the camera had zoomed in on him. If it was legitimate, he would have shown signs of not being able to see when Liston's glove hit his face.
"Cassius, you're my million dollar baby, so please don't let anything happen to you before tomorrow night." — Sonny Liston, As read on CBS' I've Got a Secret[4 Fight One was in the Miami Convention Hall (8300 attendance). Fight Two was in the St. Dominic's arena, a junior hockey rink in Lewiston, Maine, a milltown with 40,000 residents located 35 miles north from Portland Maine....on the Maine Turnpike,... only 2,434 fans were present, setting the all-time record for the lowest attendance for a heavyweight championship fight.
After the first fight, Liston had had been barred from fighting in every state except Maine and Kentucky.
Not everything has to be an elaborate conspiracy. About 2 minutes in to the 4th liston lands some big punches, from then on ali doesn't throw a single right hand and he misses any time he throws a left hook. He sits down immediately claiming he's struggling to see. Maybe something got in his eye, maybe the glove grazed it, maybe a lot of things. None of it changes the fact he continued to outpunch sonny until the weak minded champ quit on his stool. Infact this discussion is convincing me he quit in the rematch. He was hurt by an unexpected punch and thought "fuk this i'm staying down" just like jersey did against rocky. If anyone has solid proof of a fix, i'm open to being convinced
I doubt very much that it was fixed. Sonny went seven hard rounds with Ali....and the fight wasn't as one-sided as people think. But Ali had swelled Sonny's face. I do think it's quite likely that Sonny was unprepared, but that's not Ali's fault. If it was fixed, then there would've been easier ways to do it then take stinging jabs for seven rounds. The second fight I think probably was fixed. Just can't see Sonny going down from that punch, then flopping around like that. Should have been a NC, 'cause Walcott lost control and Sonny was not given opportunity to safely rise. No way now to prove anything on either fight. I doubt Ali will make any deathbed confessions.
There isn't a liniment oil produced that doesn't have a near immediate effect on burning the eyes. And blinking will not clear the substance out of the eyes. So the true fact is, absolutely nothing happened to Cassius Clay in Round 4, pertaining to liniment in the eyes. Can anyone say Chris Dundee,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Wrestling Promoter in Miami Beach. Everybody was fooled in Miami Beach.
Dundee stated that whatever was in Alis eyes burned HIS eyes so no doubt something was in alis eyes. Its a silly arguement really. Ali beat up Liston in fight 1...he was badly cut, swollen and hurt by Alis punches. The first fight was of course totally legit. Second fights more of a mystery but analysis of the film frame by frame shows that Alis right hand hit Liston as he was stepping forward with his left foot. When Alis punch landed it was powerful enough to lift Listons left foot off the canvas. Also if you watch the film a minute or two after the fight is stopped Liston staggers a bit as the crowd mills about him in the ring.
Good points. I strongly believe it was fixed, Liston had NOI members round him before fight, it was reported by Jimmy Cannon, Dick Young, and other boxing reporters. Liston had once gone distance with a broken jaw in club fight, he was not going to give up heavyweight championship of world over a sore shoulder.
In a courtroom you have to prove something beyond reasonable doubt. The question we are asking here, is more along the lines of where the balance of probability lies.
The same principle applies. The default standing is it's a fair fight. To prove otherwise you need to provide, well, proof.
Depends, in a civil case the balance of probabilities is what can be judged. I have seen or heard nothing that would make me think that is 'proven' even on the balance of probabilities that either fight was 'fixed'. Great stories do not always make great evidence.
Certain people on here have issues with Ali,they can't seem to accept that he has the greatest resume of any heavy. The simple fact is mentally Liston couldn't handle Ali. Liston was a brave fighter he'd proved it in some of his previous fights,fighting on against Marshall with a broken jaw. Twice walking through Williams' huge bombs and knocking him out. But mentally he just couldn't handle all the craziness of Ali,so he quit. The same scenario with Duran the second time against Leonard,Duran would have bravely engaged Sugar Ray in a toe to toe war like first time round,but he couldn't handle Leonard's clowning in the second fight so he quit. A true fix has to mainly involve all parties,look at Ali's reaction when Liston went down in the second fight,he stands over Liston,gestures and shouts "get up ya bum"